Looking for some advice from the experts

[Fred Bear]

After reading through the post in the Hobby Talk area about why there seems to be so little love for vintage cards, I thought long and hard about why I don't collect more vintage cards... I love the 'vintage' feel of some of the new sets and am drawn to them (I debate doing the OPC 'retro' set each year) above all others. Even with the 'weak' hits and 'low return' on the RCs, I have more fun busting the packs and boxes that make me feel like it's 1984 again... LOL!

Well, now I'm older, wiser?, and preparing for a new year with several big life changes coming my way... I want to do something within my hobby that makes me happy and provides me the 'release' I need. I want to work on a set... a vintage set.

I've tried before, with little luck, because of many of the reasons that I outlined in my post in newfiecomicguy1's thread:

1) Interaction... I enjoy interacting with other collectors (this may seem contrary to some of the PMs I have responded to on offers for my cards). In taking up this endeavor, I don't have the luxury of an LCS stocked to the gills with vintage cards. I also don't have access to (or time for) weekly card show trips to shows which may or may not have vintage cards (let along vintage hockey cards).

The low activity levels in vintage forums, no LCS with vintage hockey, and low show access have discouraged my attempts in the past. I'm looking at this in a new light and with renewed passion.

2) Condition... If I've learned anything online, it's that what I call NM-MT and what others call NM-MT is not necessarily equal. I'm slowly learning to be ok (I say this with extreme hesitation) with getting a card as 'filler' until I can 'upgrade' it. Last year, I got a good price on an 1980-81 Topps Set which was in really nice shape. I've probably identified 50 cards that I want to replace (off-center, dinged corners, boxes rubbed off, etc.) with another 50 that are 'borderline'...

Again, I'm trying to keep a positive view on this and I'm assuming that this is what other vintage collectors do.

3) Counterfeits... I consider myself somewhat savvy, but vintage hockey is not an area where I have considerable experience. I'd like to think that I can tell a fake in person, but identifying the same fake in a scan (or even identifying a doctored image) is another story altogether.

I take the view that the dirt-bags are not as prevalent as it may seem and I'm not going to let this discourage me too much. I think the means exist to protect myself fairly well.

So, after my long-winded prelude, my questions are thus...

- Given the 'restrictions' that I have described, what are the pitfalls I need to avoid in working on a vintage set?

- When collecting a 'vintage' set, what are the pros and cons of graded cards? Is it worthwhile to put together an ungraded vintage set? Should I expect to get ungraded versions graded?

- Are there good references (both individuals on the forum and books in print) that I should seek out and talk to?


Thanks in advance for your help and advice!

** And just in case you were wondering, I am planning on working on piecing together the 1954-55 Topps hockey set. I currently have 0/60. **

 

[orfew]

Given the 'restrictions' that I have described, what are the pitfalls I need to avoid in working on a vintage set?

- When collecting a 'vintage' set, what are the pros and cons of graded cards? Is it worthwhile to put together an ungraded vintage set? Should I expect to get ungraded versions graded?

- Are there good references (both individuals on the forum and books in print) that I should seek out and talk to?


Graded cards

One easy 'pro' would be to prevent getting a counterfeit card. Some counterfeits have sneaked by some grading companies however. For cards after WWII and before the 80's I recommend PSA. However, for pre war cards I use SGC because of their point grading system. For some pre war cards the difference between a graded 1 and 2 can be several hundred dollars, especially with cards from sets such as C55, C56, 1936 V304D, and any of the candy issues.
I do pick up the odd raw vintage card but you need to be careful until ou have handled quite a few. With experience it is easy to teall the difference between the counterfeit and the real item. However, the fakers are clever. One trick is to flatten a rough vintage card and then trim it to the exact specifications of a non tampered card. these days the graders will now measure the thickness of a vintage card and not onl the other 2 dimensions.

One negative is that you are unlikely to get a great steal of a deal on graded vintage. the collectors who have them know what they are worth. (There is also a graded card price guide out there). Mainstream price guides are useless. For example, a 1910 C56 RC of Ed Lalonde books at 1000.00 in nm. In reality you might get a graded 3-4 for that price. If that card were graded a 7 it woul sell in the 5 digit range.

As to references:
I would highly recommend this book. it is out of date price wise, but it contains info on vintage cards and ephemera that you will not find elsewhere.
http://www.vintagehockeycollector.com/
There are some really serious vintage guys on http://www.network54.com/Forum/381767/
It is not a busy site but the people there do not mind answering questions for less experienced vintage collectors. Some people psot stuff that you very rarely see evne at the Toronto expo and other large card shows.

Collecting vintage is not all that daunting but it helps to be armed with a few tips. You will find that there are groups that collect vintage and they tend to be close knit and will help each other. I know people that will send me alerts when certain cards appear or will send an email tip. Most vintage collectors I know are a little bit crazy, but in a harmless way.

Also, the 54-55 topps set is a wonderful one to collect. There are some tough cards and the prices can be high but it is an historic product. For design, art and player selection it is a great set.

Hope this helped a little,
Andrew

 

[newfiecomicguy1]

I strongly recommend buying the more expensive cards from a dealer you trust or one that has a good reputation. I can certainly recommend a few to you. When starting a vintage set that you are not familiar with I recommend getting some knowledge and making your self familiar with the set/cards. Google it there is a lot of information out there. Also drop by a local card store and chat with the owner and some of the customers. LCS are a great place to get information. I also suggest buying a couple of the cheaper ones maybe even a graded low end one to have with you so you can become familiar with the texture, size etc....

I best thing I can suggest about collecting vintage is collect what you like and what makes you happy. I like the older stuff but I usually stick with the Leafs and star players. I am not a set collector as such but more of a card collector. I love collecting the players that I watched as a kid and the cards that I once owned. I am currently collecting opc cards of Leafs and star rookies from 1970-1990 plus star players and Leafs from 1970 and before.

 

[Fred Bear]

Thank you guys so much for the responses, this is exactly the type of information I was hoping to get!!!

orfew, I am going to order the book you referenced. I've had that one earmarked for some time and think now is definitely my time to buy! I need more education on vintage hockey and that appears to be THE respected resource... I've already started doing quite a bit of research on the 54-55 Topps set (I have population reports from PSA, SGC & BVG and am diligently watching auctions/sales to gauge pricing expectations). I am definitely leaning towards acquiring graded copies even though 'steals' may be few and far between. While I am still green behind the ears, I think I will shy away from buying raw from ebay... I'm just not good enough at determining 'condition' from scans.

newfiecomicguy, I hear you loud and clear on collecting what you like! I think that is what has drawn me (back) to vintage in the first place. I'm a set collector at heart (and always have been) and the thought of putting together a nice set like 54-55 Topps is very exciting to me... Unfortunately, a lot of your other comments just aren't possible for me. I fear the LCS has run it's course for me with respect to vintage hockey. He's a vintage baseball guy and I doubt he's ever ripped a pack of hockey. None of the current customers are vintage anything guys. If anyone knows of a shop near central Pennsylvania that does carry vintage hockey, I'm all ears! I'd love to get the names of other reputable dealers (online mostly), though, if you're willing to recommend them. I'm going to take your advice and try to pick up at least one graded and one ungraded card from the set in the next couple of weeks. Have to start cutting my teeth somehow!!!

I know this is a 'slow' forum for responses, but if anyone has any other tips, I'm all ears (or eyes for reading, I guess).

P.S. I'm also 'officially' looking for 1954-55 Topps cards!