Thoughts?

joshpackham

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Currently watching a great episode of Sports Card Live with Gregg Kohn and Jeremy. Looking for thoughts from everyone on the following.

Would you be more likely to collect an insert set from Leaf if a card was serial numbered /20 and had a 1/1 (21 total copies)

Compared to having copies /6, /5, /4 , /3, /2, /1 (21 total copies)

or do you prefer the lower serial numbers and if you want to chase the set, it doesn't matter which version you grab for a set.

Hopefully I made that clear enough. Look forward to hear from everyone.
 
Always better to have only 1 1/1, lets start with that. Not a blue 1/1 and a red 1/1 etc.

I am ok with various other levels of parallels but I like to see lets say /100 /25 /10 /1 but when you start with various levels of parallel that are all less then 10 I don't think that is cool.
 
There's more than one reason I have dropped chasing any Leaf Beliveau stuff for my PC but this was one of the bigger reasons.

Darren
 
I think the only time multiple parallels of the same card work, is if there's a noticeable difference in both card appearance and rarity. I'm not familiar with each parallel out there, but from what I've seen, this is something that a set like OPC Platinum accomplishes.

Now I understand that with rare GU, it's not possible to have large variations in the print runs due to the lack of pieces you can put in the cards. So considering that, and the fact that the Leaf cards don't seem to change much other than a slightly different colour, I just don't see the point of having all those parallels.

As mentioned by Darren above, there's multiple reasons I don't really collect Leaf stuff, and something like this certainly isn't helping. There's no value in a rare card if there's 20 other copies of the same rare card.
 
I would rather have one copy of the /20 and then see if the 1/1 pops up. IMO, /3 /5 /7, etc is all the same card, just a different color. I don't really want to chase 5 different versions of the same card.
I also agree with the post above about the 1/1 cards. There should only be one 1/1 card, not multiple 1/1s of different colors.
 
I'd rather see 3 tiers. Something like a regular version /20, a colored version /5 or /10 and a gold version 1/1. Not 6-7-8 different colors /10 /5 /3 /2 and a bunch of different 1/1
 
I’d also rather see a single 1/1 and something like /20 or even really /30 is fine. Like others have said, chasing 7 parallel versions of the same card is rough. It’s particularly rough when so many of the parallels are /5 or less as well.
 
I'd like to start off by saying I am a big supporter of Leaf and love the quality of cards they produce. Gregg and his team truly do an excellent job, especially given the circumstances of not having a license.

A few comments I have:

1) I wholeheartedly agree with the "more than one 1/1 parallel" thing. I think that's crazy. Now, you have to look at why that is done. It's done because of the various parallels. If the "base" version is already really scarce as it is and you're squeezing all those parallels in, naturally there's only so many ways of doing that with a scarce print run, so there is going to be overlap somewhere in that case. It's important to note this is NOT the case for the majority of Leaf cards, only the scarcest of cards, typically those with rare vintage memorabilia pieces.

2) I agree I would like to see the parallels scaled back. It is excessive. Do we like rainbows with a lot of versions? Yeah, but within reason. Like was mentioned above, OPC Platinum does a great job of this. Even though there are a ton of parallels, they're all very different in appearance and print run. In this case though, would I rather have the base version /6 or a parallel of it /5? Well, honestly, it's essentially the same thing, especially if the only thing changing is the foil color. I would greatly prefer to see there be only one or two parallels of cards that scarce to begin with. Why? If the most common card is limited to just six copies, there's not going to be much difference in the value for the parallels. The 1/1 would get a bump, sure, but the other ones in between are almost as easy to find as the base anyway, and if you look at the quantity of base vs. parallel, there are more parallels. That dynamic decreases the value in the parallels since it's basically just going against the point of a parallel in the first place. On the flip side, suppose you go with a /25, /10, 1/1 type of system, for example. Obviously this will not be the case for the scarce stuff, but just for the sake of the argument. There would be a noticeable premium for the /10 and certainly for the 1/1 since they are noticeably rarer cards than the /25 base version.

3) I think scaling back the amount of parallels could actually save memorabilia in the long run. Yes, in the OP, that example is an equal amount if copies. But let's look at something like a multi-player vintage memorabilia card. Let's suppose that card has /5, /4, /3, /2, and two 1/1 versions. That's a total of 16 copies. Suppose you want to still really focus on the scarcity of those cards, which they SHOULD be. If A Vezina memorabilia piece is /20 or /25, I think that is just way too high nowadays for what it is. A card like that should be an extremely tough pull. Suppose you switch that card to have just a /5 base version and a 1/1 version. You just saved 10 pieces of memorabilia while still achieving the goal of having an extreme level of scarcity for the card. Also, in that process, you are actually driving up the demand for the card by decreasing the supply. AND, the memorabilia you have goes a longer way. I'd be EXTREMELY cautious with how I am using vintage memorabilia at this point, especially guys like Vezina and Cyclone. Once those remaining pieces are used, they're gone. That's it. If throughout your line of products you incorporate 25-30 Vezina pieces per year, you're going to use it up a LOT quicker than if you limit the parallels and only use say 15 pieces per year. It drives up the demand for those cards AND makes the memorabilia last longer. Total win-win.

4) Though not related to the original topic, the same can be said for the focus on multi-player memorabilia cards. Is it great to have some? Yes, absolutely, no question. But when that becomes the norm, it actually hurts the value of the cards. I have opened a ton of Leaf ITG Used over the years and I can 100% tell you if I pull say a six-way vintage memorabilia card, I'd be able to get substantially more value if those six memorabilia pieces were on their own cards. That six-way I might get $100 for. If they're individual pieces, I could easily get twice that amount. Easily. And again, by limiting the number of multi-player memorabilia cards, you are stretching the usage out over a longer period of time. Take that six-way memorabilia card. That is one card. If you break up those pieces into single-player cards, you just allowed yourself to make SIX TIMES the amount of content with the exact same amount of memorabilia being used. I also believe the cards with tons of players hold less demand. Suppose you collect Cyclone. Do you want Paddy Moran on the card too? You couldn't care less if he's on it or not, most likely, because you just want Cyclone. Would you enjoy having that piece? Sure, but that isn't why you want the card, at all. If I'm collecting a specific player, I'd rather see my guy on his own, or with guys that make a lot of sense to be paired with, say if they all played on the same line, for example. It's a natural fit. But just throwing together guys from the same era doesn't make a ton of sense to me outside of just enjoying the hockey history presented.

Woof, this got a bit out of hand, sorry for the long read, folks. Gregg, you know I love what you guys do; just trying to provide some insight that would make the product better for both the consumer and manufacturer. If you guys want to hire me on as a hobby/business consultant, let me know. ;)
 
Good insight everyone!. Trust me, I definitely hear your opinions on the parallel issue. I have thought about changing the format on some products to cut down the parallels. Here are a few issues. First, our print runs are pretty low so let's say instead of /30, /12, /7, /4, /3 /2, /1 I do /40, /15, /5, /1. 4 levels. I have talked to others about that and they feel it would damage the opening experience for them. Ive also talked to some that prefer cutting out the extra colors and doing the 4 versions only. The ones that worry about me tasing out lower levels of parallels think it makes the product less enjoyable and more redundant to open. Also, while opening a product people have told me they like getting cards numbered lower as they do sell better and make the opening experience better. Also, many times I make the last 3-4 versions patch or nicer memorabilia to change it up.

I am open to changing up a few inserts to test in the future. As far as the vintage memorabilia, I mentioned on Jeremys podcast last night that starting with ITGU Hockey, I will be cutting back on vintage to try and keep the value up, but also simply because this stuff can't be replaced and I want to make it last. Don't worry there will still be vintage in ITGU, just not at the same levels, I have content to make up for it. this years will be an auto mem in every box and some beautiful jumbo patch, pad, skate......
 
This. All those low-numbered parallels are ruining things for OCD-like player collectors.

Unfortunately, with our print runs so low, we couldn't do 3 versions as we would have to add too many forms to have enough cards and the product would not be financially viable. Parallels help add lower numbered content
 
Don't worry there will still be vintage in ITGU, just not at the same levels, I have content to make up for it. this years will be an auto mem in every box and some beautiful jumbo patch, pad, skate......
This has me very curious. You know I love ITGU...hoping I can swing buying some this year.
 
Swing away! its gonna be good! probably more parallels then some would like :) but you'll enjoy it
Oh I always have. Best product on the market IMO. I don't break much product, so for me to pretty much break it every single year, and having opened a case in two of the last three years, says a lot.
 
Good insight everyone!. Trust me, I definitely hear your opinions on the parallel issue. I have thought about changing the format on some products to cut down the parallels. Here are a few issues. First, our print runs are pretty low so let's say instead of /30, /12, /7, /4, /3 /2, /1 I do /40, /15, /5, /1. 4 levels. I have talked to others about that and they feel it would damage the opening experience for them. Ive also talked to some that prefer cutting out the extra colors and doing the 4 versions only. The ones that worry about me tasing out lower levels of parallels think it makes the product less enjoyable and more redundant to open. Also, while opening a product people have told me they like getting cards numbered lower as they do sell better and make the opening experience better. Also, many times I make the last 3-4 versions patch or nicer memorabilia to change it up.

I am open to changing up a few inserts to test in the future. As far as the vintage memorabilia, I mentioned on Jeremys podcast last night that starting with ITGU Hockey, I will be cutting back on vintage to try and keep the value up, but also simply because this stuff can't be replaced and I want to make it last. Don't worry there will still be vintage in ITGU, just not at the same levels, I have content to make up for it. this years will be an auto mem in every box and some beautiful jumbo patch, pad, skate......

While we're offering suggestions, what about more single player cards? I collect Giacomin and the vast majority of cards are multi-player. Would love to see more single player memorabilia cards.

To make a point on the original questions regarding parallels, I think most would like to see more different subsets, less parallels. Something like a /25, /10, /1 would be perfect in my book.

Thanks for reading. Looking forward to seeing what comes down the pipe next.
 
4) Though not related to the original topic, the same can be said for the focus on multi-player memorabilia cards. Is it great to have some? Yes, absolutely, no question. But when that becomes the norm, it actually hurts the value of the cards. I have opened a ton of Leaf ITG Used over the years and I can 100% tell you if I pull say a six-way vintage memorabilia card, I'd be able to get substantially more value if those six memorabilia pieces were on their own cards. That six-way I might get $100 for. If they're individual pieces, I could easily get twice that amount. Easily. And again, by limiting the number of multi-player memorabilia cards, you are stretching the usage out over a longer period of time. Take that six-way memorabilia card. That is one card. If you break up those pieces into single-player cards, you just allowed yourself to make SIX TIMES the amount of content with the exact same amount of memorabilia being used. I also believe the cards with tons of players hold less demand. Suppose you collect Cyclone. Do you want Paddy Moran on the card too? You couldn't care less if he's on it or not, most likely, because you just want Cyclone. Would you enjoy having that piece? Sure, but that isn't why you want the card, at all. If I'm collecting a specific player, I'd rather see my guy on his own, or with guys that make a lot of sense to be paired with, say if they all played on the same line, for example. It's a natural fit. But just throwing together guys from the same era doesn't make a ton of sense to me outside of just enjoying the hockey history presented.

I kind of see this the opposite way . I much more enjoy having multi-player vintage memo cards , than the single ones ( even though I like them a lot , too ) . I think it`s not my business to think for the company in order to save memorabilia . I`m pretty sure they know what they are doing ;-)
As for the parallels , I don`t mind them to be honest. I enjoy collecting ITGU , and I`m not a completionist , so for me it is "just" a hobby I do for fun .
 


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