Vault

[zackmak]

Final Vault didn't have base cards/HSHS redemption points, whereas regular ITG products had many of them. Rare cards were actually rare.

Think of it this way - If every card in the product (Vault) is /10 or less.... are they actually rare? In the original product, the /10 cards were huge chase cards. In a product where everything is limited, they no longer have a special quality to them.

Maybe 'rare' is the wrong term to use. 'Limited number/production' might be more appropriate...but those two terms usually go hand-in-hand, don't they?

With what you said - ITG having many base cards in their original run, but not Final Vault - I'm betting (like yourself) ITG's original total number of cards per complete set, AND also the number of cards produced overall in each series themselves were much bigger than Vault's. With the Vault not having a checklist to confirm numbers per complete set, AND no listing of overall production run numbers (i.e. how many boxes were made for sale), there's no way to fairly compare percentages on pulling specific cards.

Nonetheless, I agree pulling a #/10 card from a large series (i.e. original ITG product) would be more satisfying because there were less #/10 insert sub-sets to pull from. If pulling a #/10 card from a series (ie. Vault) where every card is part of a possible #/10 insert sub-set, then the anticipation when opening a pack is gone.

That being said, this refers to pulling a #/10 card from the entire GROUPING of #/10 cards. If looking for a specific player from that entire grouping, then it will still be a tough pull regardless of what the full production run was (300,000 or 500,000). So from that angle, I don't see the Final Vault having a negative. Besides, a #/10 card still means there are still only 10 cards (or 20, if you think 10 are from original ITG product, and 10 from the Final Vault), so it's limited and/or rare, just the same, IMHO.

Here is why I hate vault/final vault. I have been chasing this card since it first came out:2006-07 ITG Heroes And Prospects He Shoots He Scores #HSHS39 Bobby Ryan/ Ted Lindsay
Attribute(s): Att: MEM /20
I have seen 1 copy in 14 years. I have also seen one vault copy. So there should have been 20 of the original made yet it is near impossible to find, but all of the sudden a version pops up with a stupid little V stamped in the corner Was this vault copy one of the original 20 meaning my search just became that more harder? Or was there more then 20 made in the first place? Either way im not impressed

I agree, it's very frustrating not knowing these details. Having to rely on random chance of coming across the other 19 cards of these specific Bobby Ryan cards.... when they can be anywhere in the world... and then hope each owner posts their copy online for the world to see...and have the image up for years and years to coincide with the time you decide to search for it... with google search being good enough to show each poster's image as a result ...and this is assuming all 20 were produced and also still not sitting in an unopened pack....Phewww LOL. I guess that's part of the crazy fun in collecting. But yeah, Final Vault got you thinking looking out for this card for 14 years was a waste of time if your assumption is that they never existed in production. Sucks, man.

But turning a negative to a positive, wouldn't it now be easier to find more of these cards with Final Vault releasing more of them? Not sure, are you trying to buy as many #/20 as possible? As another plus, knowing that way less than 20 are out there, your card is much more desirable!

Out of curiosity, do these Bobby Ryan cards have their print run stamped on their card...or was the #/20 run stated on the hobby box or listed on the ITG official checklist site?

 

[WatchMyBreaks]

Vault put the final nail in the coffin for most older ITG/BAP high end game used inserts. Not to say that they lost all value but the market was trending down before that. I understand why the decision was made from a business perspective but from a collector stand point I really didn’t understand why BAP/ITG sat on so many great cards for almost a decade. There are some great Vault cards who’s game worn material beats anything released in packs. Seems like the higher end items probably should have been offered as replacements or maybe some sort of He Shoots He Scores style giveaway over the years.

Vault cards don’t interest me so I just don’t buy them. The product itself probably accelerated the value loss for high end game used from those earlier years but the end result would have been the same either way. I do feel bad for people that invested a ton of money in some of those early 2000s BAP/ITG releases and have seen some of their best items lose 75-90% of their value over the years. Kind of the polar opposite of the true “investment cards” we see people throwing money into nowadays.

 

[cygnusx1]

That being said, this refers to pulling a #/10 card from the entire GROUPING of #/10 cards. If looking for a specific player from that entire grouping, then it will still be a tough pull regardless of what the full production run was (300,000 or 500,000). So from that angle, I don't see the Final Vault having a negative. Besides, a #/10 card still means there are still only 10 cards (or 20, if you think 10 are from original ITG product, and 10 from the Final Vault), so it's limited and/or rare, just the same, IMHO.

I think the thing being referred to here is "artificial rarity". All these Vault cards are marked 1/1, though they can be as much as /9 or /10 depending on the colour of stamp, IIRC. Not to throw shade at another company here, but it's one of the reasons I don't have much interest in certain Leaf products. Why have parallels of a card numbered /9, /7, /5, /3, /2, /1?

There are cards that are technically not rare when defined by print run, but still super desirable, such as the Pro Set Holograms, or Starquest Golds. I'd much rather have those cards than a stamped 1/1 of a previously released Bill Guerin card, that's for sure.

And my main point is still, let's say you had a sweet Connor McDavid auto rookie, limited to xx. 10 years later, the company releases completely identical cards, doubling their production while likely halving their value. Let's say you had put together the whole set, and it was a remarkable accomplishment given that the cards were so limited. And all of a sudden the availability doubles. Everyone can pretend finances aren't involved in cards, but everyone knows that's just not true.

 

[zackmak]

Vault cards don’t interest me so I just don’t buy them. The product itself probably accelerated the value loss for high end game used from those earlier years but the end result would have been the same either way. I do feel bad for people that invested a ton of money in some of those early 2000s BAP/ITG releases and have seen some of their best items lose 75-90% of their value over the years. Kind of the polar opposite of the true “investment cards” we see people throwing money into nowadays.

What's surprising to me is that these Final Vault cards are being sold for higher than their original counterparts!!! If people see them as parallels with smaller print runs than the original, then yes, I can understand why they would go for more. But like cygnusx1 mentioned, an original card/pull of a superstar will generally have more desirability than a 'reprint', whether it's a parallel or not.

So, prices for these shouldn't be automatically skewed towards one way or another as a marketplace consensus.

Vault put the final nail in the coffin for most older ITG/BAP high end game used inserts. Not to say that they lost all value but the market was trending down before that. I understand why the decision was made from a business perspective but from a collector stand point I really didn’t understand why BAP/ITG sat on so many great cards for almost a decade. There are some great Vault cards who’s game worn material beats anything released in packs. Seems like the higher end items probably should have been offered as replacements or maybe some sort of He Shoots He Scores style giveaway over the years.

Vault cards don’t interest me so I just don’t buy them. The product itself probably accelerated the value loss for high end game used from those earlier years but the end result would have been the same either way. I do feel bad for people that invested a ton of money in some of those early 2000s BAP/ITG releases and have seen some of their best items lose 75-90% of their value over the years. Kind of the polar opposite of the true “investment cards” we see people throwing money into nowadays.

Curious, why were ITG memorabilia cards trending down in the first place (even before Vault was released) since many of their cards offered unique and unparalleled pieces/presentation that the licenced card companies couldn't or wouldn't offer? It seemed like ITG cards always got some love from collectors. Losing 75-90% of their value...what's the logic?

Even with Vault coming out later, and some fans angry about how it all was released, at the end of the day, like you said "There are some great Vault cards who’s game worn material beats anything released in packs." Did the angst from fans actually trump the collectibility joy of some/more amazing cards being released? Even from a financial point of view on their original ITG cards, it doesn't make sense for them to fall so dramatically (as I just spoke about above).

And it terms of holding onto cards instead of releasing them right off the bat, is that any different than a company having a rare jersey, goalie pad, etc. and slowly cutting it up over a number of years for memorabilia cards? Should a fan get super excited to get a Terry Sawchuck goalie buckle card in 2010, but then that same fan get super angry when a new card comes out with a Terry Sawchuck goalie buckle in 2020? Or, does it all depend on if the card is completely different in design vs. an 'identical' parallel card? But again, there is value in both the original and parallel cards.

Personally, I would not turn away (or still purchase, for that matter) a great ITG memorabilia card of a player I collect, regardless what series it came from or year of release. I can't control the marketplace value, but as the saying goes "the value is what each collector wants to pay" and I guess that still holds true for these original ITG cards, even with Final Vault being released.

Maybe past ITG memorabilia cards going down in value has everything to do with ALL past memorabilia cards going down in value because of saturation and 'new' product always getting more attention = higher prices. No different from when UpperDeck released all those jersey patch cards during the early 2000's and everyone was blown away. Now we see those same cards in binders/bins for $5 at conventions.

 

[MR.M's Cards]

I agree, it's very frustrating not knowing these details. Having to rely on random chance of coming across the other 19 cards of these specific Bobby Ryan cards.... when they can be anywhere in the world... and then hope each owner posts their copy online for the world to see...and have the image up for years and years to coincide with the time you decide to search for it... with google search being good enough to show each poster's image as a result ...and this is assuming all 20 were produced and also still not sitting in an unopened pack....Phewww LOL. I guess that's part of the crazy fun in collecting. But yeah, Final Vault got you thinking looking out for this card for 14 years was a waste of time if your assumption is that they never existed in production. Sucks, man.

But turning a negative to a positive, wouldn't it now be easier to find more of these cards with Final Vault releasing more of them? Not sure, are you trying to buy as many #/20 as possible? As another plus, knowing that way less than 20 are out there, your card is much more desirable!

Out of curiosity, do these Bobby Ryan cards have their print run stamped on their card...or was the #/20 run stated on the hobby box or listed on the ITG official checklist site?[/QUOTE]

I do not collect 1/1's so vault has no interest to me, most are stamped 1/1 even though most arent 1/1??? regardless, adding these vault cards to the market does not help me in any way when searching for the original released card. I do not consider them to be the same, but instead 2 different cards. For the particular card I am searching for I can recall if the /20 is acutally on the card but it is listed that way on the original checklist

 

[30ranfordfan]

Personally, I really liked vault - from a "collectibility" standpoint. There were lots of GREAT memorabilia cards, and autographs.

What Vault showed us was that ITG was running off extra copies of a lot of those cards, but they were never intended to pack-out. Think about the show-stamped cards we used to get for opening boxes at the expo.... same kind of deal as these Vault cards.

Of course when collectors saw that their Gold Patch cards that was supposed to be /10 actually had 20 (or so) copies printed... they're disappointed. "My card is not as rare as it was supposed to be". I never had that sentiment myself. My card /10: I do believe there are still only 10 unstamped copies out there.

I have found vault to be a nice way to pick up amazing memorabilia pieces (and some autographs) for my collection, because I'm more focused on the GU quality, rather than the rarity of the card anyway. One aspect of my collection has been "get a GU card for anyone to have ever player for the Oilers, if he has a GU card". You can find some GREAT pieces, with the Vault stamp, and you can usually get them for a pretty low price.

For my Ranford collection, I would not take a Vault card and cross something off my wantlist because I now own that one. I want the unstamped, pack-pulled, version. Same with any sets I'm working on. Never happened yet with the Ranford cards I'm still missing.... but a few years back a Gump Worsley Jersey card I was looking for (and was limited to 9 copies) showed up, with a Vault stamp. I bought it, as I'd never seen an unstamped copy in all the years I'd been looking for it. The result? two (ish) weeks later, an unstamped one shows up. I paid slightly more for that one, lol.

I have picked up lots of Ranford Vault stuff over the years (when it comes along cheap) - but to be honest: If I didn't own any of it, I wouldn't miss it.

Vault cards, for a player collector to add, were tough. Since you don't know what exists - you don't know what you're chasing.... so it's just a guessing game. It's like show stamps. A bonus when you get them, but an afterthought if you don't.

 

[SNobles]

Personally, I really liked vault - from a "collectibility" standpoint. There were lots of GREAT memorabilia cards, and autographs.

What Vault showed us was that ITG was running off extra copies of a lot of those cards, but they were never intended to pack-out. Think about the show-stamped cards we used to get for opening boxes at the expo.... same kind of deal as these Vault cards.

Of course when collectors saw that their Gold Patch cards that was supposed to be /10 actually had 20 (or so) copies printed... they're disappointed. "My card is not as rare as it was supposed to be". I never had that sentiment myself. My card /10: I do believe there are still only 10 unstamped copies out there.

I have found vault to be a nice way to pick up amazing memorabilia pieces (and some autographs) for my collection, because I'm more focused on the GU quality, rather than the rarity of the card anyway. One aspect of my collection has been "get a GU card for anyone to have ever player for the Oilers, if he has a GU card". You can find some GREAT pieces, with the Vault stamp, and you can usually get them for a pretty low price.

For my Ranford collection, I would not take a Vault card and cross something off my wantlist because I now own that one. I want the unstamped, pack-pulled, version. Same with any sets I'm working on. Never happened yet with the Ranford cards I'm still missing.... but a few years back a Gump Worsley Jersey card I was looking for (and was limited to 9 copies) showed up, with a Vault stamp. I bought it, as I'd never seen an unstamped copy in all the years I'd been looking for it. The result? two (ish) weeks later, an unstamped one shows up. I paid slightly more for that one, lol.

I have picked up lots of Ranford Vault stuff over the years (when it comes along cheap) - but to be honest: If I didn't own any of it, I wouldn't miss it.

Vault cards, for a player collector to add, were tough. Since you don't know what exists - you don't know what you're chasing.... so it's just a guessing game. It's like show stamps. A bonus when you get them, but an afterthought if you don't.

I bolded the part that I think people are upset about. Not that I have an opinion on if they should or shouldn't be, but for me I was able to add a couple of the Roy masks that have alluded me for years at a fraction of the price.

With that said I am in the same boat as you, I would pay more for the unstamped version to have one of the original pack out ones.

 

[30ranfordfan]

I bolded the part that I think people are upset about. Not that I have an opinion on if they should or shouldn't be, but for me I was able to add a couple of the Roy masks that have alluded me for years at a fraction of the price.

With that said I am in the same boat as you, I would pay more for the unstamped version to have one of the original pack out ones.

Well, the obvious answer is: I can get them on the cheap because not many people want them. Why don't many people want them? They don't really cross off wantlists.... and the unlicensed cards were already becoming less and less popular.

Having a red 1/1 stamp on them does make them "rarer" than the original version, but not more desirable.

There is ONE ITG era Bill Ranford card I don't have (other than 1/1s). It's a 2006-07 BTP Double jersey with him & Grant Fuhr. Gold Version /10. I remember losing an eBay auction for a Vault copy, but I seem to think is sold for $35, or so. If one came along tomorrow - I would pay $35 for the placeholder, but that'd be about my max. I'd go higher for the "real" card.

 

[WatchMyBreaks]

I wonder how Vault would have been received if in the early 2000s Dr. Price decided to use serial numbering on his game used cards instead of the "out of 10", "out of 20", etc. Would people have looked upon Vault more favorably if it didn't have the stamp and instead looked just like the other cards without the serial numbering? Doesn't solve the issuing of diluting the population of cards printed but my biggest dislike of Vault cards are the stamps themselves. As someone mentioned previously they look like tacky show stamps.