Which is bigger? 400 or 600?

Which is bigger? 400 or 600?

  • 400 career wins

    Votes: 14 15.9%

  • 600 goals and counting

    Votes: 74 84.1%
  • Total voters
    88
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capsfan30

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So, both MA Fleury and Alex Ovechkin hit huge milestones in their respective games last night. Fleury notched career win #400 (in 728 games), and Ovechkin netted his 600th career goal (in 990 games).

So, which is the bigger achievement? Only 12 other goalies has hit the benchmark win total (only 2 others active). Ovi is the 20th player to hit the 600 goal plateau, but is the 4th fastest to the marker in league history.

I know this is really comparing apples to oranges, but in your opinion, which is the bigger deal?
 
I've loved Flower since he was a Screaming Eagle but I've got to give it to Ovie here. I like my snipers and to have gotten to 600 so quickly (and amongst that company) is pretty special.
 
20 players have reached 600 goals only 13 have 400 wins. As time goes forward I think 600 will be more impressive but to this point I think 400 wins. Looking at active players Marleau has a shot at 600 otherwise we may have to wait a while to see another 600 scorer, might be Laine lol. Current goalies Miller and Rinne both have a shot at 400 wins.
 
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Considering how little respect MA Fleury has gotten thus far in his career, 400 wins is the bigger acheivement. Ovie has always been expected to be one of the all time great goal scorers, ever since his rookie season, barring injury. Goalie is a much more injury prone position as well, with a much higher turnover rate.
 
There was a time when 300 wins would make you a lock for the HOF. 400 wins, there wouldn't have even been a conversation.

I'm not trying to knock Fleury... I think he's a great goalie. I think he's had a great career, and if he retired tomorrow has a solid HOF argument.... but I just don't buy into wins as being that big of a deal. The goalie does have a lot to do with those wins, but they're a product of the team - not just the one player.

400 wins is a product of longevity, and playing on good teams. If the Penguins had drafted Eric Staal in 2003, how many wins would Fleury have? Probably still over 300, but he's be a ways from 400.

600 goals, on the other hand, is a number that stacks up as incredible across any era, no matter who the player was.

That he's the 4th fastest to get to 600 goals, people will use that as reason to point at Ovechkin as being one of the greatest goal scorers ever. I think if you look at his numbers a little deeper (adjust for era) you'll find that he isn't one of the greatest goal scoreres ever, he *IS* the greatest goal scorer ever (okay, it's hard for anyone to top Gretzky's Edmonton years in goal scoring... no matter what era adjustments you make... but there's a really good case to be made for Ovechkin).

If the whole "fastest to do it" means much to people (and to a degree, it should) then Oveckin is already in the conversation as one of the top 4 goal scorers of all time. I won't argue pro-Ovechkin vs Gretzky or Lemieux... but I'd take Ovechkin over Brett Hull 10 times out of 10 (and I think Brett Hull was an incredible player. I'm not sure why he doesn't get more love as one of the top 10 or 15 all time greatest).
 
Because Ovie went sub-1000 games for 600 in an era where scoring has been down relative to the 80s, I'll give Ovie the nod over Flower.
 
Wins is more of a reflection of the player's team's accomplishment, goals are a more personal accomplishment. 600 goals is way more impressive than 400 wins. It isn't even close.
 
Just to add to this.... how exactly one should adjust for era, I suppose, is debatable. Not saying my 5 minute method is perfect - but it give you a ball park.

I took the average number of goals per game during a season, and multiplied that by the number of games the player played in. Call that the "expected goals in a game played" number?

If you take the players goals scored in a season, and divide by expect goals in games played, you're seeing the percentage of expected goals in a season scored by that player. The bigger the number the better.

I looked at just 4 names.... the 4 that scored 600 goals in fewer than 1000 games.

If I were to rank them in order:

Brett Hull (through 900 GP) scored 18.92% of expected goals
Alex Ovechkin (through 990 GP) scored 21.57% of expected goals
Wayne Gretzky (through 718 GP) scored 21.65% of expected goals
Mario Lemieux (through 719 GP) scored 23.43% of expected goals.
 
600. But it's the rate that makes it more exceptional.

Some of these milestones can be reached with longevity.

Recchi 577 in 1652 GP

For goalies, it's a product of longevity and the team success. So for me wins isn't a reflection of how great a goalie is.

Osgood 401 in 744 GP
Fleury 400 in 728 GP
Hasek 389 in 735 GP
Even Nabokov is at 353 in 697 GP
 
I have to go with the 600 too. Don't get me wrong, 400 wins is awesome, but as others have mentioned, it's definitely got a lot to do with the team in front of you. You can let in 5 goals on 25 shots for a save% of .800, but as long as your team scores 5 and wins the shootout, you get the win.

And there's another taint for goalie win achievements - the shootout.

Sidenote: OV 'needing' 990 games to get to 600 only makes me wayyyyyyy more impressed with Bossy's 573 goals in 752 games.
 
Bossy was impressive but that was different era as well. Ovi on that team in that time would have surpassed. Imagine Ovi especially younger in grets day. Having hat trick nights would be a norm. Shredding Mike Luit style goalies who wouldn't be backups today.
 
CKcardtrader said:
Bossy was impressive but that was different era as well. Ovi on that team in that time would have surpassed. Imagine Ovi especially younger in grets day. Having hat trick nights would be a norm. Shredding Mike Luit style goalies who wouldn't be backups today.
Click to expand...

Not to detract from the thread, but comparing eras is an effort in futility. I could give sound argument that it would be the other way around, that Ovie wouldn't have performed will back then and Bossy would have been more dominant now.

Regardless, Ovie's achievement is quite something, definitely puts him in some very exclusive company, and definitely cements him one of the best goal scorers of all time.
 
Looking at it mathematically by number of 600 goal scorers divided total number of NHL players vs the same for 400 win goalies we get:

20 600 goal scorers / 6835 skaters who have played at least one game equals

.3 %

13 400 game winners / 761 goalies who have played at least one game

1.7 %

Much tougher to get enough game in to get that chance - I believe the average career of half the players to ever play is less than 100 games and only 4% ever reach 1000

Even though I'm a goalie guy i would think the 600 goals is more impressive

And don't get me started on goalies were better back in my day and meant more (they did). Modern goalies are just robots with padding.

/get off my lawn

// and lay off Mike Liut - that's my guy :)
 
But how many D reached 600....none. You have to subtract all D from the equation. Come on Geoff :snapout: :devil:


Ironman Indy said:
Looking at it mathematically by number of 600 goal scorers divided total number of NHL players vs the same for 400 win goalies we get:

20 600 goal scorers / 6835 skaters who have played at least one game equals

.3 %

13 400 game winners / 761 goalies who have played at least one game

1.7 %

Much tougher to get enough game in to get that chance - I believe the average career of half the players to ever play is less than 100 games and only 4% ever reach 1000

Even though I'm a goalie guy i would think the 600 goals is more impressive

And don't get me started on goalies were better back in my day and meant more (they did). Modern goalies are just robots with padding.

/get off my lawn

// and lay off Mike Liut - that's my guy :)
Click to expand...
 
here are some numbers to put into a small perspective. I know they are not the same stats. if a goalie averages 30 wins a year, it would take him 13.33 years to get to 400. It would take a player 20 years averaging 30 goals a year. Only 1 other active player has more than 500, Patrick Marleau (530) ,next is Rick Nash (437). MAF is 3rd active with over 400 wins (Luoungo & Lundqvist) , and 1 more may get there, Ryan Miller (366). This makes Ovie's accomplishment more impressive.
 

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