Who is the best all-around player in the league?

[jmatchett]

Neither Ovy or Crosby kill penalties. The question asked was who is the best all around player. If you don't trust your players in a defensive situation such as the penalty kill, I'd say they aren't necessarily well rounded.

Mind you, in Ovy and Crosby defence, they don't get pk time because they're so dang busy doing what they do really well.

You can have those guys on your list of all round players, that's fine. But my opinion is that they may not be the best all round players in the league.

Cory

That's kind of my point. A big part of being able to be a forward is the ability to play defense, and the guys on the list are guys who are either Selke nominees who put up great offensive numbers, or guys who are above-average defensively and put up amazing offensive numbers. Ovechkin, at times, is very lazy in his backchecking, which is why he's not on my list. Crosby has shown the willingness to become more complete, which is why I've put him there. Also, Ovechkin can lay the hammer, but Crosby can't; the guys on my list can (again, Crosby being the exception, but he hits more than he's given credit for). The guys have the ability to drop the gloves and handle themselves. But yes, if you're not trusted by your coach to kill penalties regularly, then you're not a complete player. If I'm starting a team tomorrow, I'd be hard-pressed NOT to take Datsyuk for what he can bring in every aspect.

 

[langway05]

I'd be about as impartial in this poll as Sarah Palin is with her Dancing With the Stars voting...

What he said /\.. lol

 

[timber09]

I understand the question posed - but what I am saying is that they are so much better at one end of the rink that any shortcomings at the other are more than compesated for. Sure Mike Richards kills penalties much better than either one of those guys - I completely agree - but both of them score more than 50% more than Richards. To me you cannot overcome that difference with a good PK.

 

[DredJAw]

I immediately thought Brad Richards.

- Scores 90+ points
- Wins faceoffs
- Plays excellent 2 way hockey (PP, PK, last minute of game, etc)
- Provides leadership
- Can play any style of hockey... be it defensive, strong forecheck, offensive, run and gun, etc.
- Can use his body
- Makes everywhere around him better
- Can line up against the other teams best players
- Is an iron man. Plays 82 games regularly.

Oh and he's won a Conn Smythe and has dominated playoffs before.

When I think *complete* player I think Brad Richards. He does everything remarkably well.

 

[jmatchett]

I understand the question posed - but what I am saying is that they are so much better at one end of the rink that any shortcomings at the other are more than compesated for. Sure Mike Richards kills penalties much better than either one of those guys - I completely agree - but both of them score more than 50% more than Richards. To me you cannot overcome that difference with a good PK.

So....your argument is that all-around player, to you, is a player who's really good somewhere, and lacking in others, but it's okay, because he's really good somewhere? All-around means that, if you assigned a ranking to every part of the game, then added them up, he would have the highest total. Ovechkin's offense can be a 10 to Richards 7, but Richard's 10 PK would outweight Ovechkin's...2, maybe?
You can take your team of guys who score 50 goals but give up 60 (think mid-90s Pens).
I'll counter them with my team of guys who score 35 and give up 20 (think mid-90s Wings).

 

[SID87OVY8MALKIN71]

MY TOP 10

1. Datsyuk
2. Richards
3. Kesler
4. Plekanec
5. Ovechkin
6. Iginla
7. Crosby
8. Cleary
9. Clowe
10. Green

 

[timber09]

So....your argument is that all-around player, to you, is a player who's really good somewhere, and lacking in others, but it's okay, because he's really good somewhere? All-around means that, if you assigned a ranking to every part of the game, then added them up, he would have the highest total. Ovechkin's offense can be a 10 to Richards 7, but Richard's 10 PK would outweight Ovechkin's...2, maybe?
You can take your team of guys who score 50 goals but give up 60 (think mid-90s Pens).
I'll counter them with my team of guys who score 35 and give up 20 (think mid-90s Wings).

Wow - there is circular logic all over the place in this post - and no, that is not what I am saying.

What I am saying is that while a guy like Mike Richards will score 65-70 points a season, be a good penalty killer (10% of icetime), and is average on the faceoff dot (50.7% last year - 48% this year) and is a damn good player in this league - plays hard in all three zones, comes back hard, hits like a truck, etc - is not in the same category as Sidney Crosby who kills 5% of the time, scores over 100 points per year and is one of the leagues best in the circle (55.9% last year and over 57% this year).

So, in short, Mike Richards is a better penalty killer - congrats - Crosby is a better player. And if you think for a second that one GM in the NHL would hesitate for a second on which one of them they would perfer to have on their team, you are dreaming.



EDIT:
I just looked up the exact penalty killing numbers - Richards killed an average of 2:09 last year and 2:46 this year while Crosby was 0:53 last year and 0:33 this year on a per game average - oh and by the way, Crosby plays 22:20 per game while Richards plays 19:00 - so Richards must be doing a heck of a lot in the extra two minutes killing to really make this arguement stick as he's playing a total of about three minutes less.

 

[clippers00]

martin hanzal (phx)

 

[zunato]

I would say Datsyuk right now, but Toews will be in the near future.

 

[chadsexington]

And if you think for a second that one GM in the NHL would hesitate for a second on which one of them they would perfer to have on their team, you are dreaming.

As always Joe...you inspire me to have to interject my unnecessary opinion into this thread

As an NHL GM, if I'm told I have to pick one player. This player must be able to (based on my personal criteria of what composes a complete player) ...

-Score a respectable amount of points each year with a blend of even strength and special teams. Whether he scores 80 points a year or 120 points a year to me is the same measuring stick for this specific trait because both are respect-worthy amounts.
-The ability to play on the Power Play
-The ability to kill penalties
-The ability to lead a team during its highs and lows, and somebody that didn't become invisible when the team faltered only to rise when the team did.
-The ability to create opportunities and his teammates around him that much better.
-The ability to come through in the clutch without bending under pressure.
-Someone with an amiable amount of composure.
-The willingness to stand up for teammates at their lowest point, or after the cheapest of shots.

To me personally, if I stand all of the NHL's top players side by side with all of these traits in mind, I take Richards over Crosby. It's not to say that I wouldn't like to have Crosby on my team because well...there's no taking away his abilities. Just based on what I've seen over the last few years, I trust Richards to do all of these with a higher overall quality than Crosby. Crosby does all of these well, but, it's like someone said, Richards might be a 7 to Crosby's 10 in scoring areas, but there are some areas where Richards is an 8 or 9 to Crosby's 4 or 5. Sid's overall play style to me still feels a slight bit less mature than Richards. In fact, with this in mind, I almost take Datsyuk over Crosby as well.

As a Canucks homer, I like Kesler yes, but don't feel he belongs in the conversation just yet. Kes does many of the above very well, and maybe as good as the best. But like Rob said, I've never seen a case with you get the feeling Kesler is taking his team on his back and running them to the finish line. If he did, he would probably be Canucks captain right now, and not Henrik Sedin. Some of it is because he's playing in the shadow of players that are just as capable of doing it (like Henrik,) but at the same time, he's never put himself in a place where he outshined those other players' abilities to do that.

 

[timber09]

I get what you are saying here Matt - I just disagree.

Crosby is 23 years old and in his time in the NHL he has led the league in scoring, taken a young team to the Cup Finals only to lose, won a Cup, and won the Messier (stupid name) Leadership Award last year. Throw on top of that the fact that he was an Alternate Captain and scored the OT goal for the stacked Canadian squad at the olympics last year and it's a no brainer to me.

For the arguement for Richards to really have legs, to me, all hinges on what is being made of him as a penalty killer - and while he certainly spend more time killing and is better than Crosby I will admit - he's not an elite killer in the league. He's not even the best PK guy on his team.
Also - it has been mentioned that if Crosby is a 10 in scoring then Richards is a 7 - which to me is laughable. Crosby is consitantly scoring 50-60% more than Richards, this isn't small potatoes. There is a big difference (in my mind) between a threat to lead the league in scoring every year and a 70 point guy - shoot Crosby had nearly 50 more points than Richards last year.

I am not trying to take anything away from Richards as anyone in the league would love to have him on their team - to me though he is just in the Toews, Getzlaf, Staal, etc category - not in the top three.

 

[jmatchett]

Also - it has been mentioned that if Crosby is a 10 in scoring then Richards is a 7 - which to me is laughable. Crosby is consitantly scoring 50-60% more than Richards, this isn't small potatoes. There is a big difference (in my mind) between a threat to lead the league in scoring every year and a 70 point guy - shoot Crosby had nearly 50 more points than Richards last year.

So if Richards is not a 7, what s he? And based on that, what is Jody Shelley? A -80?

 

[timber09]

So if Richards is not a 7, what s he? And based on that, what is Jody Shelley? A -80?

Jody Shelley is in the same category as me and Shane O'Brien - we all seem to score at about the same pace. -80 is probably pretty close...ha!

 

[timber09]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Richards either leads the league in shorthanded goals or right there at the top since he joined the league. His SH goal the other night already moved him into 5th place on the all time Flyers list passing Rick MacLeish. That also includes three 3 on 5 goals in his career.

Blair Betts is one of the best penalty killers in the league and the numbers bear that out (with as much ice time the Flyers give him) with is 4:24 minutes SH per game.

SH goals are goals - don't get me wrong - a shorty is cool and can be a nice momentum swing but when it comes to goals, Richards had 31 which is great - but not elite.

 

[deadshot316]

The only knock against Datsyuk? All the talent in the world with the all the personality of a drunken sloth. Imagine if Datsyuk had even a quarter of the personality of Ovechkin? The guy would be a marketing machine.

Part of it is his English is still rusty (not that Ovechkin's is that much better) but Datsyuk is actually hillarious. I would encourage you to check out some interviews with him. He's a terrific personality.

 

[WildforCup10]

Mikko Koivu hands down, great captain.

awesome at faceoffs
awesome at passing puck
awesome in the shootout
awesome at stick handling
awesome on penalty kill
awesome team leader, doesn't complain

glad he is on the :wild:

 

[TanguayFan]

Also - it has been mentioned that if Crosby is a 10 in scoring then Richards is a 7 - which to me is laughable. Crosby is consitantly scoring 50-60% more than Richards, this isn't small potatoes. There is a big difference (in my mind) between a threat to lead the league in scoring every year and a 70 point guy - shoot Crosby had nearly 50 more points than Richards last year.

Actually, if you do the math, Richards would be somewhere between 6-7 to Crosby's 10. If you took 50% of 7, that would be 3.5....add that to 7 and you'd get 10.5.....see it's all about the math!?!?! LOL.

And with all due respect to your icetime comparison, look at the teams....Crosby right now has absolutely no other forwards in the team worth their salt, with the exception of Malkin, while Richards has to share ice time with several other high caliber players. Not really a fair comparison.

BTW, I agree with Joe....if I were building a team, I'd still take Crosby over any other player in the league, if for no other reason than his marketability....

 

[suitman19]

There seems to be a lot of comparing of players with much different years of experience in the league. While I am partial to Datsyuk - I can see points about Brad Richards (although his last 2 years in TB were simply pretty awful), Miko Koivu (still young - but tough to compare when the team has limited success) and Mike Richards (can't say - don;t get to see him enough).

I think when healthy you can add in Zach Parise as a rising 2 way player, Toews (although Hossa may be better right now) and there are other young players that will show up. It is hard to compare a Brad Richards/Datsyuk with 8-11 years in the league to a Crosby/Toews/M Richards at 4 years of experience...... after all that plays a huge part in the equation. Don't underestimate Crosby - he is learning.

The comment about GM's wanting to pick Crosby first is ridiculous in the context of this discussion. I may well pick Crosby first over any of these players, due to his youth, offensive output and knack for being a winner. That does not make him the best/most well rounded player in the league however. Then again - I may pick Duncan Keith first - because a Norris Trophy D-Man can anchor your team for 20 years.


One amazing fact that they discussed on the Wings/Blues telecast this evening.

Since 2006 Datsyuk is just short of 500 takeaways in that time period,
Next closest I think they said Alfredsson ... with under 300.

I realize that take-aways are only part of the equation - but that his just an eye popping differential!

bruce

 

[hederman]

Rght now it's Datsyuk, no question, but I think Alfredsson (yes, I'm biased) is 2 or 3 on the list. Honourable mention should also go to Jordan Staal. He's still young and already one of the best defensive forwards (and THE best penalty killing forward) in the league.

 

[sharkaholic707]

In my opinion, I've gotta say Crosby, Datsyuk and Pavelski (Sharks fan bias)