An odd Ebay shilling story.

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hederman

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***EDIT: Here is the auction listing: http://offer.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=190379412860
The seller ID is thebestcupcards and the shill bidder ID is 212puckguy. As you can see the shill bid was NOT the second highest so I would have paid the same anyway. HOWEVER, the intention was still there and if I didn't win the auction this would be an entirely different situation. I will not be reporting him to Ebay as I could care less about him bypassing the fee system and no harm was done but it is likely I won't buy from him again. He walked a fine line between rebel and criminal action and got lucky that I'm a very easy-going individual.***

I'll try my best to explain this but I'm not very good at narratives.

About two months ago a nice PC card popped up with a BIN of $300 OBO. I immediately put in an offer of $180 and made it clear to the seller that my offer was both firm and lasting (it would stand for as long as the card was available). He declined saying that he was looking for more but he would keep my offer in mind for later.

I watched the card and gradually his BIN went from $300 down to $275 down to $240. I kept in touch to assure him my original offer still stood if he wanted to deal (a $180 offer on a now $240 BIN looked pretty good in my book). He again declined, but did say it was still the best offer he had received in two months.

So rewind two weeks and I get an message from the seller telling me he has decided to just put the card up in auction. I was slightly excited that maybe I could get the card for cheaper, although I had seen similar cards go over $200. Anyway, I put a bid in in the low $200s (I always bid a little more than what I would offer on a BIN).

I win the auction for roughly what my original offer was (plus shipping) so I was happy and at first didn't suspect anything suspicious. The only hint of something wrong was a bid retraction a day before the auction ended but the bidder didn't have a strong bid history with the seller so I let it go.

I was out of town at the time the auction ended so I asked the seller if I could wait until I got home to pay (was on dial-up out of town and paypal would have taken forever :rolleyes:). No problem.

Yesterday I get an email from the same seller but under a different account. I immediately recognized it as the bid retractor (even with Ebays privacy block the feedback and letters matched up). I wasn't too upset because I was still paying a price I was comfortable with and there was a third high bidder so the shill didn't really have much effect. Still, I had to call him on it, so I asked him why he did it. Here was his response:

"Matt,

I did that instead of placing a reserve on the auction. You made an offer of $180 when the card was a buy it now. When I listed the card, I did a $177.01 bid, thus, the next bid would be 179.51.

If you do not want to pay for the card, that is ok, but all I did was make sure the card had a reserve of 180, but saved myself the reserve fees....ebay & paypal will take about 10% of the final value of a card, plus an additional % for reserves. I could have sold the card with the best offer to you, and gotten basically the same amount.
I truely believe I did not take advantage of you, this was the same outcome as if I had a reserve of 180...infact, when I enetered the wrong price(did 1777.01 not 177.01), and saw your high bid of over $207 or something, I could have but did not max out your bid. I consider myself a fair seller, and hope this is not a violation of trust to you...although I am screwing ebay over.

I hope you understand,
Mr. X"

I don't want to give out names because he is a powerseller, was honest, and, from what I can tell, has no history of doing this.

Now I'm all for sticking it to the man, especially the ridiculous-fee man, but I feel slighty taken knowing that this was his intention all along. I will commend him for being fair and honest to me; he could have maxed out my bid at $206 or whatever but he didn't.

Has anyone had a something similar happen to them and are there any thoughts on whether this was a fair thing to do (the shilling)?

Sorry for the long read...this has to be the longest post I've ever written. :beer:
 
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Plain & simple:

He is not honest & I would have trouble dealing with him.
That is a pretty bold step for his 'virgin' experience at shill bidding.....
ie; walks and smells like a duck.

He is, in fact, screwing you over.
He is the one that decided to forego the sure thing and send to auction.
He is only willing to sell it at auction IF he gets his minimum out of it, and saves a whopping $1.90 (The difference of listing at $.99 and $180).

Personally I would like his seller name - I would choose to avoid him.

No 2 ways about it - he is screwing ebay & you as well.

bruce
 
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I agree with the others, this behavior and this isn't his first time doing it. I would expect him to honor what your 'minimum winning bid' would have been (if he bid you up to $180), not your original offer. He took the chance listing it at auction, not you. I can understand wanting to screw ebay out of fees, but shilling to avoid them is wrong (and hurts the buyer in addition to ebay).

Just my opinion,
 
There's no way I'd pay for that card. What a ridiculous display of douchebaggery. You should post both EBay usernames here for all to see, IMO - the collecting public deserves to know who these guys are.
 
While it's not right, you got the card for what you wanted and it's obviously an important card for your PC. I would chaulk it up to experience and get the card and move on...and let someone else be the "ebay police" for another deal with far worse consequences. Having said that, I agree that I'd avoid this seller in the future and I leave it up to you if you want to share his ID with the Board.
 
netsinah - There is a difference between getting the card for what you wanted and getting the c ard for the MAXIMUM you wanted to spend. Without the shilling - the card would most likely have gone for a price discount. What was the 3rd bidders max bid.... $10 less... $20 less..... More ????

He$$ - I would list a lot more items at auctions for $.99 if I was assured that the auction would end at my minimum desired selling price!!!
 
It's definitely a dishonest tactic to get you to pay at least what you had offered earlier. If he really wanted to just avoid ebay fees and not try to make more out of it he would've offered you the card off ebay.
 
OK. I disagree with most of you I guess. I think what he did was actually a smart way to get around BS ebay fees. He obviously wasn't putting the card up for an "auction" but moreso to make the sale. HOWEVER, He definitely should have told you what he was doing first. He should have explained it very clearly to you and told you how he was going to bid, etc. But the actual idea behind is brilliant as he saves a bunch on the percentage of his sale as opposed to a buy now sale. What would have been more brilliant would have been selling to you on the side and avoiding all the ebay fees in total and knocking a few bucks off for you as well. I used to do that kind of thing all the time on other sellers second highest bidders but Ebay was so greedy they want every cent of everything so they now block us from seeing other bidders. I guess smart on their part but sucks for us.
 
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Strange situation for sure. If you truly want the card and were prepared to pay for it the same had he revised the auction to a BIN or accepted your best offer you may feel the strong desire to pay for the card and move on with the knowledge never to deal with this seller again.

No question what he did was shady and he does deserve eBay to know he is circumventing the fees in this manner. I think it's up to you how wronged you feel and how far you want to push teaching the seller a lesson.
 
despite using an underhanded tactic which backfired on him, i would personally pay for the card and walk away from the situation. again, not the best situation to be in but it is a semi win-win. you get the card you want and at the price you wanted, seller gets a sale.
 
What he did is 100% against Ebay rules. He scammed you...plain and simple. At first I was thinking you were crazy to put up a high bid right away (why people don't snipe is beyond me), but in the end...he shilled the card. With his own admission, I would think Ebay would have to suspend him....ya right...he's a powerseller, and Ebay is as gutless as the NHL when dishing out suspensions :)
 
Here is the auction listing: http://offer.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=190379412860
The seller ID is thebestcupcards and the shill bidder ID is 212puckguy. I give the names only because other collectors at least deserve to make the choice of whether to deal with him or not.

As you can see the shill bid was NOT the second highest so I would have paid the same anyway. HOWEVER, the intention was still there and if I didn't win the auction this would be an entirely different situation. I will not be reporting him to Ebay as I could care less about him bypassing the fee system and no harm was done but it is likely I won't buy from him again. He walked a fine line between rebel and criminal action and got lucky that I'm a very easy-going individual.

@koondog44- I don't use snipes because I feel they are no better than a shill bid. It's using an artificial mode to create personal advantage.
 
If he bid with the $177 ID, who's to say he didn't bid with the other ID, too:

k***k( 321) ??? You never know.


That is plain wrong.....
 
GabbyGuy said:
If he bid with the $177 ID, who's to say he didn't bid with the other ID, too:

k***k( 321) ??? You never know.


That is plain wrong.....
Click to expand...
Nah Curt, the k***k (321) is another Kariya collector. There are 3 or 4 Kariya guys who go after the same cards and he's usually among the bunch bidding.

On a side note, the seller is very easy to deal with, even offering me a reduced shipping rate. I think he knows what he did was wrong but he is trying to justify it by saying its no different than if he accepted my original offer......which obviously it is.

I'm just glad I won the card and its on its way to my PC.:dance:
 
If you're happy with the card and the price you paid, then that's great, unfortunately, by accepting his explanation and his actions, you've helped him to justify what he did and essentially told him that what he did is OK. Maybe it is for you, but it certainly isn't to the next person that he does it to.
 
GabbyGuy said:
If he bid with the $177 ID, who's to say he didn't bid with the other ID, too:

k***k( 321) ??? You never know.


That is plain wrong.....
Click to expand...

I agree. I admit I don't know everything about ebay, despite being a member since 1998 because I do not know how to retract a bid. But I imagine, based on the bid history that it should go like this:

You bid "whatever"
fake bidder put in 1777.01, which shows your max bid.
9 minutes later, fake bidder retracted bid.

This part I do not know. If you retract a bid, does the auction go from being ABOVE the 2nd max bid (ie say $190 something) back down to the old 2nd of say $27?

Otherwise, except for another bidder actively watching the auction, how would they know to bid such a strange amount as $182.01? I'd understand maybe if the next bid was $75 or $100 just to see, but that amount seems too close to the max.

But then again, someone watching the auction MAY have seen the new high bid before the retraction. Either way, it doesn't matter about the second place bidder. The seller is taking advantage of ebay, and those sellers are not welcome there. I've been bitten by Safe Harbor in the past and I learned that you either follow the rules or peddle your wares elsewhere.
 

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