Better Defenseman: Leetch or Niedermayer?

[Orca Pod]

id love to see your top 20 d-men from the past 30 years. as a rangers fan i would say scott was better but to say leetch MIGHT crack your top 20? that might be going a little overboard.

All depends on how you 'rank' a defenseman. Me, I saw Leetch 'pooch' on a regular basis; his defense was nowhere near a lot of players in the past 30 years. Guy could fly, gifted with the puck, and had a great feel for the offensive nature of the game, but he was nowhere near a top 'defense' man.

To each his own, though. It's why we have these little debates.

 

[Metrags]

Leetch was not as defensive, but he was in no way "weak" in that department.

Heck even Niedermayer wasnt "that defensive" of a player. He was 1undoubtedly more known for his offensiveness, and he played with guys like Stevens, Daneyko, and even Pronger with the ducks.


The only real difference is that Niedermayer didn't seem to tail off, he was always great. Leetch tailed off significantly IMO (injuries did him in though).

That being said, Leetch was still able to put up 300 more points, and be a one man game changer in the same way Lundy is for us now. In his prime, Leetch was Bobby Orr in red white and blue.

 

[Orca Pod]

In his prime, Leetch was Bobby Orr in red white and blue.

Dude, over the years, you have written a lot of dumb things (like all of us have). Over the years, you have written some things that had a lot of thought, and were very valid (like most of us have). Over the years, you have also written some very funny things (like most of us have).

But this one takes the cake. It is a masterpiece. It is potentially the funniest thing you have ever written.

Congrats, man. I will remember this one for years to come.

 

[tiger tiger]

They are close. Niedermayer played in a pretty defensive system that held back his offensive output. Leetch was able to put a 102 pt season and a couple PPG seasons, which was pretty impressive. However, as mentioned by many other here, Niedermayer played at a high level for much longer. Niedermayer led the NHL with 69 points in 79 games at age 36 with the Ducks. Niedermayer has won it all at every level, as well as individual accolades.

Leetch's career +/- is 25 (one year lowest -36, highest +31). Niedermayer's is 167 (one year lowest -9, highest +34)

I give Niedermayer the slight edge. Neidermayer's offensive numbers would have been better too if he wasn't playing NJ's defensive system all those years.

 

[Metrags]

It is a masterpiece. It is potentially the funniest thing you have ever written.

Leech might crack my top 20. Neids is in the top 5, easily.

I dont think I need to say any more, but Ill throw in that Leetch was a first ballot Hall of famer. wned:





By referring him to Orr, we are talking about a player's ability to single handedly change a game (which Orr did). And which Leetch did often with his skating and ability to find the open man. Niedermayer was great, but by no means a game changer in either end of the ice. I liked Nieds, and am not saying he isnt good, but the thing that stands out is not his offense or defense, it is his ability to stay consistent with his play over the years.


On that note Nieds was never even the best dman on his team, and was always paired with a competent defensive player (Stevens and then Pronger). Who is this Scott Stevens fellow again???? Just another HOF'er.....:beer: I think we simply have too many youngsters here who were not around back then.

Kind of like when we have the "Gretzky vs. Crosby" poll and for some reason it is actually a close vote..........

 

[Iceman]

I dont think I need to say any more, but Ill throw in that Leetch was a first ballot Hall of famer. wned:





By referring him to Orr, we are talking about a player's ability to single handedly change a game (which Orr did). And which Leetch did often with his skating and ability to find the open man. Niedermayer was great, but by no means a game changer in either end of the ice. I liked Nieds, and am not saying he isnt good, but the thing that stands out is not his offense or defense, it is his ability to stay consistent with his play over the years.


On that note Nieds was never even the best dman on his team, and was always paired with a competent defensive player (Stevens and then Pronger). Who is this Scott Stevens fellow again???? Just another HOF'er.....:beer: I think we simply have too many youngsters here who were not around back then.

Kind of like when we have the "Gretzky vs. Crosby" poll and for some reason it is actually a close vote..........

If you don't think Niedermayer won't be a first ballot Hall of Famer as well whenever he's eligible, you're fooling yourself.

And not a game changer? Really? You must not have been watching too much west coast hockey once Niedermayer went to Anaheim. While Pronger and Beauchemin were important parts of that defense, Niedermayer made the whole thing work. On the Power play, his skills allowed them to basically leave Pronger back as the last man, and he got to float around the offensive zone to wreak havoc. In a close game, who was on the ice defensively? Niedermayer. Who led the breakout? Niedermayer. Who was Captain? Niedermayer.

I can't speak for his time with the Devils, cause no one in their right mind wanted to watch the Devils at that point in time. But he was absolutely a game changer in Anaheim. He was absolutely Anaheim's best all around defenseman. Not Pronger.

 

[Metrags]

If you don't think Niedermayer won't be a first ballot Hall of Famer as well whenever he's eligible, you're fooling yourself.

I didnt say anything about Niedermayer and his HOF chances

And not a game changer? Really? You must not have been watching too much west coast hockey once Niedermayer went to Anaheim. While Pronger and Beauchemin were important parts of that defense, Niedermayer made the whole thing work. On the Power play, his skills allowed them to basically leave Pronger back as the last man, and he got to float around the offensive zone to wreak havoc. In a close game, who was on the ice defensively? Niedermayer. Who led the breakout? Niedermayer. Who was Captain? Niedermayer.

Game changer implies a player who dominates the game by himself. Guys that come to mind today are Lundqvist, Chara, Crosby/Malkin, Ovechkin of 3 year ago........In the 90s Leetch was one of those guys.

But he was absolutely a game changer in Anaheim. He was absolutely Anaheim's best all around defenseman. Not Pronger.

Key word(s) there are bolded as I would agree there as well. He was the best all around dman, but he was paired with guys who were well above him defensively (and above most others in the game).


Here are their playoff statlines as well:
GP G A PTS
202 25 73 98
95 28 69 97

Aside from the obvious points per game differential, the GP kind of shows you the types of teams these guys played on. The Rangers went through a stretch where the missed 7 straight playoffs. They were an atrocious team. Niedermayer never played on a bad team. Period. Im not saying he was just a lucky player to have those teams behind him, but he was very lucky to have been able to play for such talented teams. I can only imagine what Leetch would have done on a good team.




A quick google give us more fun facts. This "offensive game changer" Niedermayer scored no more than 69 points (and 15 goals) in his best year..... Leetch surpassed both those points and goals total 7 times in his career.




Lastly, and this is for Orca, Leetch is only the second player in league history to win the Calder, the Norris, and the Conn Smythe. The only other player to do that was #4.

 

[tiger tiger]

By the time NYR went on their 7 season non-playoff run, Leetch was age 30 to 37. Played with Gretzky, Lafontaine, Fleury, Lindros, Jagr during that time.

Leetch was better offensively and in his best season, he did have shades of Orr. But when the NYR began to stink, his numbers tanked too, especially in the +/- which to me is pretty important for a defenseman.

Leetch may have been better offensively, but Niedermayer was better all around.

The defensive pairing argument only holds a little bit of water because in the end the coach dictates how "free" a defenseman can be offensively.

I watched Niedermayer during his days in NJ. Yes he was paired with Stevens, but there were times when you could see an clear opening for Niedermayer to rush to the net, but he doesn't. That's because he has been told not to do it.


As for the Orr comparison, Orr was such a great skater that he'd be leading the rush and then would be the 1st guy back. Orr was good defensively too.

 

[GrimUSMC]

If you don't think Niedermayer won't be a first ballot Hall of Famer as well whenever he's eligible, you're fooling yourself.

And not a game changer? Really? You must not have been watching too much west coast hockey once Niedermayer went to Anaheim. While Pronger and Beauchemin were important parts of that defense, Niedermayer made the whole thing work. On the Power play, his skills allowed them to basically leave Pronger back as the last man, and he got to float around the offensive zone to wreak havoc. In a close game, who was on the ice defensively? Niedermayer. Who led the breakout? Niedermayer. Who was Captain? Niedermayer.

I can't speak for his time with the Devils, cause no one in their right mind wanted to watch the Devils at that point in time. But he was absolutely a game changer in Anaheim. He was absolutely Anaheim's best all around defenseman. Not Pronger.

You kind of help support the argument for Leetch here. Because Niedermeyer had such a good partner, he could play like a forward on the PP is the way I read that.

Either way, they are both definitely top 20 hands down. And I would not call it a land slide. I chose Niedermeyer over Leetch because I think his game was better defensively, but that could have been that he played on extremely good defensive teams. Either way its how I remember it. I also recall one Brian Leetch was the first ever American to win the Conn Smythe award.......... Id love to have either on my team. Its not like Leetch was a Mike Green.

 

[Iceman]

You kind of help support the argument for Leetch here. Because Niedermeyer had such a good partner, he could play like a forward on the PP is the way I read that.

Either way, they are both definitely top 20 hands down. And I would not call it a land slide. I chose Niedermeyer over Leetch because I think his game was better defensively, but that could have been that he played on extremely good defensive teams. Either way its how I remember it. I also recall one Brian Leetch was the first ever American to win the Conn Smythe award.......... Id love to have either on my team. Its not like Leetch was a Mike Green.

I should have elaborated further. Good catch. What I meant was, that he was a good enough skater such that he was able to get back in most cases. This allowed him to rove on the PP. This versatility speaks to the strength of his all around game, not just one aspect.

 

[Iceman]

I didnt say anything about Niedermayer and his HOF chances




Game changer implies a player who dominates the game by himself. Guys that come to mind today are Lundqvist, Chara, Crosby/Malkin, Ovechkin of 3 year ago........In the 90s Leetch was one of those guys.




Key word(s) there are bolded as I would agree there as well. He was the best all around dman, but he was paired with guys who were well above him defensively (and above most others in the game).


Here are their playoff statlines as well:
GP G A PTS
202 25 73 98
95 28 69 97

Aside from the obvious points per game differential, the GP kind of shows you the types of teams these guys played on. The Rangers went through a stretch where the missed 7 straight playoffs. They were an atrocious team. Niedermayer never played on a bad team. Period. Im not saying he was just a lucky player to have those teams behind him, but he was very lucky to have been able to play for such talented teams. I can only imagine what Leetch would have done on a good team.




A quick google give us more fun facts. This "offensive game changer" Niedermayer scored no more than 69 points (and 15 goals) in his best year..... Leetch surpassed both those points and goals total 7 times in his career.




Lastly, and this is for Orca, Leetch is only the second player in league history to win the Calder, the Norris, and the Conn Smythe. The only other player to do that was #4.

No you didn't argue that Niedermayer isn't a HOFer, but you seem to think that Leetch as a first ballot HOF is a point in his ledger, which will be moot whenever Niedermayer is eligible.

Game changer isn't just offense. Niedermayer was absolutely a game changer at keeping the puck out of his net. If Leetch was such a game changer as you say, why did the Rangers miss the playoffs for a good chunk of the 90's. I'm sure I could pull up some plus/minus stat to argue. Not saying Leetch wasn't a good offensive defenseman, but there is no way I take him over Niedermayer. Niedermayer was just a better balanced defenseman, and I think the success of his teams would reflect that