Expectation on product.....

MrWrestler74

MrWrestler74

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Now I saw Gary (dornhoffer) get hammered for his underwhelming Panini Contenders quad booklet. Now this bring me to my issue with product. Being a collector since the early 80's, things have changed tremendously. Jerseys and autos are common. 'Back in the day' non existant. Some can remember when the Brett Hull auto that came out in early UD /2500 or so. The Pro Set Holo etc. An amazing chase. Perhaps both Panini and UD need to scale back a little and make jerseys, sticks, autos, etc more scarce. It's a sad state of affairs when an NHL players jersey, auto, or whatever is in a common box. Just doesn't seem right to me. There should be nothing common about them.
 
Your idea's good in theory, but there are a couple problems in execution:

1) People have become accustomed to receiving that much oomph out of a box, and taking it away will probably result in less product being broken knowing the hits are few and far between.

2) Taking away the common status of an autograph or jersey hit won't necessarily negate their common status on the secondary market. If there are 17,000 Kaspars Daugevins autographs out there already, scaling his autograph back to a rare hit won't really help because there are still 17,000 of them out there.

3) Just because one company does it doesn't mean all the others will follow suit. If ITG decides to make their jerseys one a case, and Panini continue doing 1 or 2 per box, ITG might see their business drop while people continue to chase hits. We're conditioned nowadays that if you see a box being broken at a show where people are buying loose packs, and nothing comes out, collectors know "Well there are still 2 autos out there" and continue going back for packs (I'm guilty of this as recent as the last show watching people pack break a Contenders box realizing the big hits were still obtainable.) It's still creating good business for hobby store owners.

4) Because we've been conditioned, or conditioned ourselves to the way we are...I can't say this enough: A product with astronomical odds to pull "something" nowadays will not sell. Look no further than 07-08 Between the Pipes. You got 1 auto and 1 memorabilia per box, but because the chances of hitting something decent were so thin, boxes were collecting dust at $30-35 a pop, which is crazy to think since we were scooping up set builder boxes like Score and Pro Set for that much back in the day without looking back.
 
I've seen two huge changes in the industry since those early days of 'scarce hits' and 'amazing chases'. There are a lot more products out there and there are a great number of people who open enormous volumes of the product at once.

Nothing wrong with either in my opinion. It just changes the whole dynamics of collecting (especially in the secondary market).

If I open one box a year, then a quad auto.........any quad auto is a stunning pull. But if I open a case of each product every year, then a quad auto with less-than-desirable players on it may seem like a disappointment.

I think the card companies shouldn't drastically change what they are doing. They will never be able to cater to everyone's expectations. I think they should put out the product and we as consumers should determine if we are going to buy it.

I like hearing that some people are "only going to collect this product" or are "never going to buy that product again". That's probably the best way to induce serious change.

But seeing jersey cards in a dollar box doesn't bother me at all. In fact......I love it. I'm sure the person who opened the case (or cases) doesn't enjoy it as much. But I think that card companies shouldn't build their products around the case breakers (I don't feel that they do). Card companies need to find the balance between the multiple-box breaker and the person who wants to come in and open a few packs. That's an incredibly tough thing to do.

Sorry if I'm a little "all over the map". I think that the card companies do a good job. There are some amazing products out there and some cards that truly bring excitement and enjoyment to this hobby (at least for me). But I'm one who doesn't open cards with the intent of re-selling, so my point of view might (and probably will) be different than some others.

There are so many different types of collectors that it is impossible to make them all happy. For me, I like to find my "little pocket" in the vast hockey card world and enjoy it. And I do. Immensely.

Geez......I just realized that I never really answered the question. Expectation on the product? We have more information on products before they hit the shelves than ever before, we see (pack by pack) more of that product opened at release time than ever before and we are able to discuss the product with more people than ever before.

My only expectation on a product is that the company release the product on said date and that the "box odds" be what's advertised. If they want to jack it full of jersey cards or have 'no-name' autographs, then I'll be able to find that out before I buy a box. It's up to me to decide if I want to open a box or not.
 
chadsexington said:
Your idea's good in theory, but there are a couple problems in execution:

1) People have become accustomed to receiving that much oomph out of a box, and taking it away will probably result in less product being broken knowing the hits are few and far between.

2) Taking away the common status of an autograph or jersey hit won't necessarily negate their common status on the secondary market. If there are 17,000 Kaspars Daugevins autographs out there already, scaling his autograph back to a rare hit won't really help because there are still 17,000 of them out there.

3) Just because one company does it doesn't mean all the others will follow suit. If ITG decides to make their jerseys one a case, and Panini continue doing 1 or 2 per box, ITG might see their business drop while people continue to chase hits. We're conditioned nowadays that if you see a box being broken at a show where people are buying loose packs, and nothing comes out, collectors know "Well there are still 2 autos out there" and continue going back for packs (I'm guilty of this as recent as the last show watching people pack break a Contenders box realizing the big hits were still obtainable.) It's still creating good business for hobby store owners.

4) Because we've been conditioned, or conditioned ourselves to the way we are...I can't say this enough: A product with astronomical odds to pull "something" nowadays will not sell. Look no further than 07-08 Between the Pipes. You got 1 auto and 1 memorabilia per box, but because the chances of hitting something decent were so thin, boxes were collecting dust at $30-35 a pop, which is crazy to think since we were scooping up set builder boxes like Score and Pro Set for that much back in the day without looking back.
Click to expand...

1) Disagree. You can still make nice, hard to find inserts that would still sell well. Collectors will always buy what's out there. People will be more prone to bust wax if the retail prices come down (which would be the case if less autos and GU are inserted)

2) Here's the thing: If autos and GU are much harder to pull, you won't need the Kaspars Daugavins of the world in your auto or GU sets. This would stop the complaints of "I hit this crappy auto" and would increase the secondary sales of star autographs as they would no longer be a dime a dozen

3) Agreed. Only way it works is if all the manufacturers do the same

4) Again, make different insert sets with varying degrees of difficulty to pull. I remember in the late 90's/early 2000's when inserts and parallels sold for big coin. Set builders and player collectors fought all the time. Not so anymore. No one wants to build jersey and auto sets of scrubs and SSSP stars. Too expensive

Here's the last point: If my box costs me $50 instead of $75 because less autos/GU are inserted, I won't feel the need to ask for the moon for the hits I get. I remember selling inserts for $2-$5 each and sometimes $25-$50 if they were tough to pull and at worst I'd lose 20% on a box break. These days, you're LUCKY to get 60% value in a box. This hobby needs a major makeover
 
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If things continue in the direction they are going, the market will kill itself. Now the honesty/integrity of the companies is coming into question. Is it a real GU'd jersey or a fake?? If it's proven that companies are using fakes, again the market will crash and burn. The companies are hurting themselves, hurting the collectors and jerking around the players too much for this situation to get any better. Why the companies cannot strike a deal with the NHLPA to acquire GU'd jerseys directly from the NHL instead of relying on third parties to obtain them is beyond me. ITG seems to be the most honest, legitimate company out there right now. If they make a mistake, they fix it. Their products are well described and numbered correctly so the collector has the knowledge of the product they paid for. They WANT public opinion. How do you do better than that?? Easy answer. You don't.
 
What needs to happen is still do the products that are jersey/patch/auto hits one per pack or 2-3 per box, but make a low end/affordable set that has "hits" that are much rarer but still fun to bust for the average consumer driving up the value.
 
Ok, I'll start by saying I have a conflict of interest because the hobby for me is to sell the stuff - but, that being said, here is my opinion on the issue.

Contenders is a very decent product and actually has a very good return. The quad auto likely covered the better part of the price of the box. Don't forget, there were other hits in that box. I scratch my head wondering just how disappointed the person would have been then if the box they broke did not have the quad auto????

Is that how a box should be evaluated?

When people place a value on the product based on what they can get out of the $$$ return - they are often not enjoying the hobby as much as when they enjoyed collecting hockey cards...

And I know you can read this and say I am one to talk.... - but I gave up my right to open product for the real reward of this hobby now for me - watching the smiles on the faces of happy customers who buy a pack and get a hit; buy a box and get the hits; or the family who come in and spend time together collecting.

Even the "that box sucked" people are often smiling at the end because "one man's junk is another man's treasure" and they make trades with other collectors who desire those "crap" quad autos....

I know value for money is important but the "Fun" should be the true measurement of value.
 
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The one thing I will argue is value. The price of cards, and even lower end product, has gotten beyond the reach of casual kids like I used to be. It used to be cool to go to the corner store and get stickers and cards. Now you have pack searching horror stories in Walmart and Target constantly. Things like The Cup are just insane. A really cool product, but UD can never in a million years justify to me $400 for 6 pieces of cardboard. But I guess it's like wine. Collectors have different flavours. As far as expectation of product? Well to be fair, Ebay and Beckett have also added to the frenzy of it all.
 
My expectations on a product...
What I expect, if I pay $10/ pack, I get a top player from any team or a rookie prospect, or a jersey or auto of decent players of, say, the top 5 of each team.
...if I pay $30+, those players should top 3. with a chance to pull something more than a 1"x1" jersey.
...if I pay more, like in the price range of high end cards, the regular cards should be short and numbered, jersey cards should have auto's & numbered, patches should be significant & prominent & short, special cards/offers should be big hits.

...what ever happened to 12-15 cards/pack for a couple of bucks? 5-6 cards a pack for big $ and all regular set cards (not short printed) is greedy by design, not by chance.
 
It's the over saturation of the market that is my issue. On the surface sure it's OK to be more accessible, but why a 6 auto /50? That's all my beef is really. A Sakic /50 sure.
 
frankiefives said:
1) Disagree. You can still make nice, hard to find inserts that would still sell well. Collectors will always buy what's out there. People will be more prone to bust wax if the retail prices come down (which would be the case if less autos and GU are inserted)

2) Here's the thing: If autos and GU are much harder to pull, you won't need the Kaspars Daugavins of the world in your auto or GU sets. This would stop the complaints of "I hit this crappy auto" and would increase the secondary sales of star autographs as they would no longer be a dime a dozen

3) Agreed. Only way it works is if all the manufacturers do the same

4) Again, make different insert sets with varying degrees of difficulty to pull. I remember in the late 90's/early 2000's when inserts and parallels sold for big coin. Set builders and player collectors fought all the time. Not so anymore. No one wants to build jersey and auto sets of scrubs and SSSP stars. Too expensive

Here's the last point: If my box costs me $50 instead of $75 because less autos/GU are inserted, I won't feel the need to ask for the moon for the hits I get. I remember selling inserts for $2-$5 each and sometimes $25-$50 if they were tough to pull and at worst I'd lose 20% on a box break. These days, you're LUCKY to get 60% value in a box. This hobby needs a major makeover
Click to expand...

The card company's goal isn't to help collectors make money, their goal is to make 'themselves' money.

And like I said in another thread somewhere, if you eliminate all the non-stars in the hobby, you're left with Crosby, Gretzky, and...well, yea.
 
If I had a magic wish for the hobby it would be a low end set i could make out of a box or two depending on the set size. My first child turned 1 last month. It got me thinking of my best memories of the hobby. They are of putting together sets with my dad. A random pack here and there with a box for my birthday and I could build a set with him and have leftovers to play with. Now you have to buy atleast 6 boxes to build the low end sets cause of sp rookies.

Maybe there isn't enough demand for what I would like to see but I think it would put the focus back on collecting to put something together. Not just collecting for value.
 
Jester240 said:
If I had a magic wish for the hobby it would be a low end set i could make out of a box or two depending on the set size. My first child turned 1 last month. It got me thinking of my best memories of the hobby. They are of putting together sets with my dad. A random pack here and there with a box for my birthday and I could build a set with him and have leftovers to play with. Now you have to buy atleast 6 boxes to build the low end sets cause of sp rookies.

Maybe there isn't enough demand for what I would like to see but I think it would put the focus back on collecting to put something together. Not just collecting for value.
Click to expand...

Isn't Score or OPC that kind of set? Or even a product that is a couple years old (sometimes at blowout prices)? Panini sticker books for the last couple years have been really impressive as well IMO.

I have no doubt that with a little time and searching, the price point and product you are looking for exists. Or sometimes be creative. There are always collecting options out there. That's what I love about the hobby these days.
 

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