Hockey HOF Pyramid

[JohnnyDrama]

Okay, so this idea is a blatant ripoff of Bill Simmons' proposal for the basketball HOF but I loved the thought.

Q and I were discussing a few guys who I didn't believe were HOFers who had hit the "magic numbers": Andreychuk, Recchi, Shanahan, etc. Guys who were essentially good, not great and played for a long time.

The idea behind the pyramid is that there are obviously levels (note: this is only about players. Coaches/Execs/Contributors would have another wing entirely):

The entry level would be for your borderline guys. Your Andreychuks, your Forsbergs (who I think should get in but that's an entirely different argument), etc.

Your next level up are the stars but not the greats. Think Sundin, Modano, Lafontaine, etc. Guys who were near the top of the heap for a good portion of their careers and put up the requisite numbers.

Third level would be the borderline greats. I think this is the perfect place for Messier (who I was torn on), Hasek, and so on.

The fourth and final level is the pantheon. This is where the GOATs (Greatest Of All-Time) reside. You'd find Lemiux, Orr, Gretzky, Howe, Roy, etc. in here.

Not only does this give these guys the special HOFer tag but think about the bragging rights for the Pantheon guys or the arguments that would ensue from where to put one player or another (like Messier).


So, even though this may not be totally definitive, what are some suggestions you guys would have for each level? I'll edit this post as we get more unanimous decisions but I think this would be a great idea. Discuss.

 

[suitman19]

Umm Shanahan not worthy???

Seriously what level are we seeking for Hall of Fame worthiness??

1500 Games 654 Goals 698 Assists 2489 Penalty Minutes
3 Stanley Cups with 60 Playoff Goals and 74 Playoff Assists
World Championship Gold Medal and Olympic Gold Medal.
Only player in NHL history with over 600 goals and 2,000 penalty minutes


What is your definition of Elite???


Personally I don't like the idea of levels - you either are or you are not.

 

[M35Richter]

Messier isnt one of the Greatest Of All Time? 2nd ALL TIME in scoring, Only player to captain 2 different franchises to a cup, 6 total cups......etc etc

 

[JohnnyDrama]

Umm Shanahan not worthy???

Seriously what level are we seeking for Hall of Fame worthiness??

1500 Games 654 Goals 698 Assists 2489 Penalty Minutes
3 Stanley Cups with 60 Playoff Goals and 74 Playoff Assists
World Championship Gold Medal and Olympic Gold Medal.
Only player in NHL history with over 600 goals and 2,000 penalty minutes


What is your definition of Elite???


Personally I don't like the idea of levels - you either are or you are not.

Elite is one of the 5-10 best in the game at that time.

Also, I'll make the same point I did with Andreychuk (who has 640 goals): It took him well over 1500 games to do it and he was consistently GOOD, not great. There are many a HOFer who don't belong that are in who were GOOD, not great.

And I do agree with you that you either are or your not but let's face facts that a lot of guys can get in eventually even if it takes them 5 or 6 tries.

 

[golgo13]

Dang, Forsberg borderline? Most of your guys in your "levels" I thought would be shoe ins, I agree with Bruce here, I don't like the level stuff, your should be in or should not, and Shanny was great IMO, prolific goal scorer who could drop the gloves and beat you up, I wish he still played on the Wings.....

 

[JohnnyDrama]

*sigh* The CURRENT system is in or out and I was merely proposing an idea I thought would provoke discussion.

As far as Forsberg being borderline, his career was relatively short in comparison to others (at least that's the argument against him).

 

[JohnnyDrama]

Messier isnt one of the Greatest Of All Time? 2nd ALL TIME in scoring, Only player to captain 2 different franchises to a cup, 6 total cups......etc etc

It's why I was torn on him. Through most of the 90s, was he considered one of the 5-10 best in the game? Seems like there were quite a few names that would come up before his (Lemieux, Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Yzerman, Bourque, Roy, etc).

I just don't think he's in that very select class that Lemieux/Gretzky/Orr are in. Though, here's food for thought: I argued that Jagr should be in the Pantheon. To me, he was 90s scoring and since I didn't get to see Gretzky in his prime and only was a fan for the tail end of Lemieux's run, he was the greatest scorer I ever saw.

 

[Orca Pod]

A thread like this will always show bias towards certain players.

Andreychuk? Please... Shanahan? Third level at best. That's my bias.

Then again, a lot of people will disagree with me when I say Mike Bossy should also be in the top level along with Gretzky, Roy, Howe, Yzerman, Lemieux.

Then, on top of that level is another one, with only one person: Orr. No one else even need apply to that level.

 

[quincy]

Funny you say that. We said the same about Bossy. Really, if you think pure goal scorers - Him, Richard, and Lemieux are probably the best pure goal scorers we've ever seen. And before someone opens their mouth about Gretzky: Ain't knockin' him. His overall skill set was unreal, but his genius lay in playmaking. As a goal scorer, Lemieux was superior and had he been healthy might have given Gretzky a serious run for his money.

I think Bourque's another GOAT. I cite the example of Lemieux makin' him look like a dunce in the playoffs with the now-legendary "hide the puck in his skates" play. It's a testament to how good Bourque is that nobody believes that he could look so silly - until they see the virtuosity with which Lemieux befuddles him.

 

[WildforCup10]

Yea but with Gretzky he could score just about when he wanted it seemed. He enjoyed having his team mates score goals just as much. Also just think of how many more goals he would have had if he didn't pass the puck all the time. After all he still has the record at 92 a season.

I think Brett Hull is one of the all time greats too. He was a pure goal scorer.

After thinking about them players including Bossy and Lemieux. It was just a great time to be a hockey fan.

I frown on the point scorers nowadays. It just not like it used to be. I do give props to the goaltenders and they are much better nowadays but it is just not the same. The game is definitely different.

 

[phate]

It's gonna be so subjective it's crazy. Doesn't matter where you slot guys in you're gonna get people who argue, so if you wanna set this up be prepared for a huge argument.

As for me, to not include somebody like Messier in the upper tier you're off your rocker, to not put him up there is insane. You literally have to discount his accomplishments simply because "he wasn't as good talent wise" which is to discredit him for not playing longer than other people were willing or (in some cases), able to. But because he WAS able to and was WILLING to play longer than some other players to make his stats push the boundaries (to be second overall of all time) automatically puts him into the upper echelon of players.

Either way, realize that in order to make this argument you are never going to please everyone and you'll always have people arguing their point up against yours... So as long as you are comfortable ranking players where you think they should be in your own mind then it shouldn't matter what other people think, because in the end it's entirely subjective. I just think it'll always be a never ending battle.

Meh.

Matt

 

[chefjason]

It's gonna be so subjective it's crazy. Doesn't matter where you slot guys in you're gonna get people who argue, so if you wanna set this up be prepared for a huge argument.

As for me, to not include somebody like Messier in the upper tier you're off your rocker, to not put him up there is insane. You literally have to discount his accomplishments simply because "he wasn't as good talent wise" which is to discredit him for not playing longer than other people were willing or (in some cases), able to. But because he WAS able to and was WILLING to play longer than some other players to make his stats push the boundaries (to be second overall of all time) automatically puts him into the upper echelon of players.

Either way, realize that in order to make this argument you are never going to please everyone and you'll always have people arguing their point up against yours... So as long as you are comfortable ranking players where you think they should be in your own mind then it shouldn't matter what other people think, because in the end it's entirely subjective. I just think it'll always be a never ending battle.

Meh.

Matt

what he said, and now I lost my train of thought, oh yeah Francis, where would he be, same for Dionne and Mike Gartner

 

[sprague11]

Shanahan's getting in, likely first ballot. Foppa, Recchi and Sundin will probably get in during weaker years.

 

[suitman19]

Okay - back to the tiers.

My feeling is that it somehow lessens the status of the HOF - simply because the perception of the general public is that they will consider the player in the HOF - and disregard the level at which they entered.


But I do have to make an argument about the idea of being one of the best 5-10 players of an era. This is a foolish thought process - no hatred intended - but how do you qualify a players era, when they played for 18 or 20 years?? A player that piles up stats due to his longetivity still has the skill set to put up numbers. I mean if a great player was unfortunate enough to play during 10 years of Yzerman/Lemieux/Roy/Sakic etc and 10 years of todays superstars (to be) and just elected HOF members - how can you evaluate him.

You have to take the body of work over their career.
To say it took them x number of years to do it - discounts the changes as the game evolves. Sorry whatever is thought by those of us old enough to have watched the Gretzky/Bossy/Messier/ Howe and others in their primes - they would never put those numbers up today - period. The game has changed - and so must our thinking .

Please for gosh sakes - let us not be like the idiot baseball writers that believe no one should ever be elected to the HOF on the first ballot!!!

 

[JohnnyDrama]

Okay - back to the tiers.

My feeling is that it somehow lessens the status of the HOF - simply because the perception of the general public is that they will consider the player in the HOF - and disregard the level at which they entered.


But I do have to make an argument about the idea of being one of the best 5-10 players of an era. This is a foolish thought process - no hatred intended - but how do you qualify a players era, when they played for 18 or 20 years?? A player that piles up stats due to his longetivity still has the skill set to put up numbers. I mean if a great player was unfortunate enough to play during 10 years of Yzerman/Lemieux/Roy/Sakic etc and 10 years of todays superstars (to be) and just elected HOF members - how can you evaluate him.

You have to take the body of work over their career.
To say it took them x number of years to do it - discounts the changes as the game evolves. Sorry whatever is thought by those of us old enough to have watched the Gretzky/Bossy/Messier/ Howe and others in their primes - they would never put those numbers up today - period. The game has changed - and so must our thinking .

Please for gosh sakes - let us not be like the idiot baseball writers that believe no one should ever be elected to the HOF on the first ballot!!!

Again, Bruce: this is just a discussion. Nothing will come of this, the process won't change.

That said, I don't think the tiers diminish anything. You still have to be good enough to get in but I think it's a touch unfair to lump the low-end guys (Federko or Recchi or whomever) in with the GOATs (Orr, Gretz, Mario). This would be a way to go "Yeah, these guys were pretty damn good but wait until you get to the Pantheon."

Longevity obviously factors in. It's why I think Forsberg,who is my all-time favorite player, is only borderline. He was among a handful of the best players in the world for a good 8 or 9 years.

I'd like to add another GOAT nomination that I think will make Bruce (and many Wings fans) hapy: Lidstrom. Hard to find another defenseman who was as consistently good for as long as Lids.

 

[suitman19]

Funny you mention Lidstrom.
I have seen many arguments that he is not even top 5 all time. Shows how subjective it is.

To you and other hockey knowledgable players the tiers would be recognized - but to the vast majority of casual sports fans, it would be meaningless.

 

[JohnnyDrama]

Funny you mention Lidstrom.
I have seen many arguments that he is not even top 5 all time. Shows how subjective it is.

To you and other hockey knowledgable players the tiers would be recognized - but to the vast majority of casual sports fans, it would be meaningless.

Maybe. Don't know until (it won't) that happens. But doesn't mean we can't have a fun, interesting discussion.

 

[CKcardtrader]

See and I was going to go another way with this. I always thought that the HOF should switch to qualifying nature as well to take out the silly subjective balloting. I think if a player hits 1000 points, 500 goals, 700 assists type thing that it is automatic ticket punch. Then there can be balloting for people like cam neely, lindros,bure, crosby if forced to retire, to get in as well but it is just silly to hear do we think Sundin is first or second ballot, he ticket should have been punched after his 1000 point end of discussion or Peter Bondra struggled to pot 500 but did and is in top 100 goal scorers to ever lace up skates. HOF is pompous and silly how players have "wait".

 

[Bugjam]

A thread like this will always show bias towards certain players.

Andreychuk? Please... Shanahan? Third level at best. That's my bias.

Then again, a lot of people will disagree with me when I say Mike Bossy should also be in the top level along with Gretzky, Roy, Howe, Yzerman, Lemieux.

Then, on top of that level is another one, with only one person: Pavel Bure. No one else even need apply to that level.

Corrected your spelling error for you.

EDIT: I would put Bure in a similar category to Forsberg, had he (Bure) not had the injuries that he had, then I would place him higher up the pyramid.

 

[Orca Pod]

Corrected your spelling error for you.

You are an *******. May the fleas of a thousand camels infest you armpits. There is definitely a level that POS Russian puke belongs in, but that level is somewhere below the ring of scum around an algae pond.

:beer: