How long 'til shootout stats are recognized?

[bidds55]

It seems a natural progression to me that anything that can be turned into a statistic in most sports, eventually gets tracked, and right now, shootout stats , while tracked, are not widely available, or examined.

I am wondering how long until we see shootout stats more widely recognized?

 

[plubers]

Hopefully soon. You can win a game for your team by scoring in the shoot out but you get no recognition.

 

[fly4apuckguy]

While I would not like them as a part of a player's goal totals, I think a separate stat (above the matter of fact way they keep track now) is certainly in order. It is a very important part of the game, obviously.

 

[Chinner]

Hopefully soon. You can win a game for your team by scoring in the shoot out but you get no recognition.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[brado8236]

The biggest problem I see with officially crediting players with these stats is that 90% of the league will never participate in a shootout. If shootout stats start becoming an important bargaining issue in contract negotiations, a small minority of players can actually make more money based upon a coach's decision to use them in shootouts. The majority of players will never participate in one, again due to a coach's decision, and by extension could stand to lose money. The Player's Association should fight hard against shootout stats counting in any official capacity, knowing that they will be unofficially tracked anyway.

 

[themadmonkey]

The biggest problem I see with officially crediting players with these stats is that 90% of the league will never participate in a shootout. If shootout stats start becoming an important bargaining issue in contract negotiations, a small minority of players can actually make more money based upon a coach's decision to use them in shootouts. The majority of players will never participate in one, again due to a coach's decision, and by extension could stand to lose money. The Player's Association should fight hard against shootout stats counting in any official capacity, knowing that they will be unofficially tracked anyway.

Man I dunno about that. 90% of the league will never net a hat trick either. The coach isn't picking the shooters because they are his favorites. He picks them because they are the best at shoot outs. Being the best at something is usually what gets you a raise (in theory I mean, doesn't seem to hold true at my job, but I digress).

I seriously doubt that shoot out stats will play a part in contract negotiations. If they do it is because the player has nothing else to use in his favor. Like Petteri Nummelin from the Wild. For shoot outs there was no one better. the rest of his game was pretty week though...hence no longer playing in the NHL.

Besides the stats are being kept already. By the teams and the television stat people. The leaguareis the only ones left that do not recognize it as an official stat.

 

[hockeykid87]

I think the shoot-out winning goal should count towards a players goal on the season, only the game winner though

 

[brado8236]

Man I dunno about that. 90% of the league will never net a hat trick either. The coach isn't picking the shooters because they are his favorites. He picks them because they are the best at shoot outs. Being the best at something is usually what gets you a raise (in theory I mean, doesn't seem to hold true at my job, but I digress).

I seriously doubt that shoot out stats will play a part in contract negotiations. If they do it is because the player has nothing else to use in his favor. Like Petteri Nummelin from the Wild. For shoot outs there was no one better. the rest of his game was pretty week though...hence no longer playing in the NHL.

Besides the stats are being kept already. By the teams and the television stat people. The leaguareis the only ones left that do not recognize it as an official stat.

You're right, talent levels will typically dictate salaries in the NHL. However, if these stats become official and start to inflate player totals, they could potentially affect contract bargaining.

For example, Pavel Datsyuk scored 97 points last season. Credit him with the 4 shootout goals he scored and he ends up with 101 points, a significant scoring milepost.

So you say Datsyuk was gonna get paid anyway because he's one of the best. Fair enough, but let's look at Radim Vrbata, certainly not a superstar by anyone's definition and not necessarily someone you'd expect to see in a shootout.

Yet there he was at the end of last season having scored 5 shootout goals. Not only did he perform better than an established superstar (Datsyuk, along with others), it pushes his season goal totals up to 32. Again, 30 goal scorers typically get paid at a higher level than 27 goal scorers, so it could affect Vrbata's bargaining position come contract time.

Compare him to Mike Knuble, who had 29 goals last season (and 55 points, Vrbata had 56). Knuble had zero shootout attempts, thus zero shootout goals. Was his season substantially better or worse than Vrbata's? Doesn't seem that way unless you add in Vrbata's shootout goals and he becomes a 30 goal scorer.

It's an admittedly slight shift in perspective, but enough that it could potentially cost a guy like Knuble a raise simply because he didn't get to shoot in a shootout.

By the way, nice to meet you, Mr. Devil, I'll be your Advocate in this discussion.

 

[bidds55]

I wouldn't suggest that the totals be added to the standard stats, as that could significantly skew previous scoring records, etc. I'm just saying they could add a stat line for shoot out goals, shoot out attempts, shoot out percentage etc.
I would never want to see shootout stats bumping a player over a milestone, regardless of what it was. It should be a counted and monitored stat, but held seperate from all other stats.

 

[themadmonkey]

You're right, talent levels will typically dictate salaries in the NHL. However, if these stats become official and start to inflate player totals, they could potentially affect contract bargaining.

For example, Pavel Datsyuk scored 97 points last season. Credit him with the 4 shootout goals he scored and he ends up with 101 points, a significant scoring milepost.

So you say Datsyuk was gonna get paid anyway because he's one of the best. Fair enough, but let's look at Radim Vrbata, certainly not a superstar by anyone's definition and not necessarily someone you'd expect to see in a shootout.

Yet there he was at the end of last season having scored 5 shootout goals. Not only did he perform better than an established superstar (Datsyuk, along with others), it pushes his season goal totals up to 32. Again, 30 goal scorers typically get paid at a higher level than 27 goal scorers, so it could affect Vrbata's bargaining position come contract time.

Compare him to Mike Knuble, who had 29 goals last season (and 55 points, Vrbata had 56). Knuble had zero shootout attempts, thus zero shootout goals. Was his season substantially better or worse than Vrbata's? Doesn't seem that way unless you add in Vrbata's shootout goals and he becomes a 30 goal scorer.

It's an admittedly slight shift in perspective, but enough that it could potentially cost a guy like Knuble a raise simply because he didn't get to shoot in a shootout.

By the way, nice to meet you, Mr. Devil, I'll be your Advocate in this discussion.

Yeah! A debate! Well my friends (in best John McCain voice). My stance on this is it absolutely should count. (not towards the players goal total but as a seperate stat) The goal decides the game. To me it is just ridiculous that you can have a winner in a game where no official goal was scored. Baseball players get an RBI for a walk that forces in a run, why shouldn't a Hockey player get to count a spectacular shoulder fake backhander that knocks the water bottle off the top of the net and ends the game?

I would argue that the market value for a 30 goal scored and a 27 goal scorer isn't significantly different anyway. You could debate salaries until the cows come home and there will always be one or two that someone can toss out there that will skew the whole works. (Jeff Finger comes to mind)

Marian Gaborik (or at least his agent) seems to think that he is worth more than 8.5 million a year which when using current contracts as a gage is significantly higher than his numbers warrant. And he absolutely sucks at shoot outs. Will he get the amount he is after? Very probably, he has already been offered more than 8 million a year.

In closing let me say that the contract process in the NHL is severly flawed, yes. Will counting a stat that actually decides the outcome of a game make it worse. Hardly.

Besides there is a crazy old lady standing here that claims that Brado is an Arab. (for the Canadians and the politiacally indifferent that is another lame McCain/Obama reference)

 

[NJDEVILS30]

When Brodeur passes Roy's wins record, I predict that there will be a huge amount of whining due to Marty's 27 shootout wins (most of any goalie since it started as per Doc Emrick).

There should be a stat for shootouts as they are a huge part of the game these days... pools should use them and there should be a trophy for shootout performer of the year... you know, that guy who single handedly gets his team into the playoffs after scoring a pile of shootout winning goals!

 

[brado8236]

Yeah! A debate! Well my friends (in best John McCain voice). My stance on this is it absolutely should count. The goal decides the game. To me it is just ridiculous that you can have a winner in a game where no official goal was scored. Baseball players get an RBI for a walk that forces in a run, why shouldn't a Hockey player get to count a spectacular shoulder fake backhander that knocks the water bottle off the top of the net and ends the game?

I would argue that the market value for a 30 goal scored and a 27 goal scorer isn't significantly different anyway. You could debate salaries until the cows come home and there will always be one or two that someone can toss out there that will skew the whole works. (Jeff Finger comes to mind)

Marian Gaborik (or at least his agent) seems to think that he is worth more than 8.5 million a year which when using current contracts as a gage is significantly higher than his numbers warrant. And he absolutely sucks at shoot outs. Will he get the amount he is after? Very probably, he has already been offered more than 8 million a year.

In closing let me say that the contract process in the NHL is severly flawed, yes. Will counting a stat that actually decides the outcome of a game make it worse. Hardly.

Besides there is a crazy old lady standing here that claims that Brado is an Arab. (for the Canadians and the politiacally indifferent that is another lame McCain/Obama reference)

Well, let me start by saying that I'm flattered to be in the Obama role...since he's going to win the election. wned:

Seriously, though, the NHL contract process is certainly flawed. That being said, even small changes in statistics can change a player's perceived value, even if the only ones that sense the change are the player and his agent.

Gaborik is a perfect example. If he could ever stay on the ice for even 70-75 games, he may be worth the $8.5+ million he's asking for. But potential for scoring and actual statistics are two different things, which partially explains the chasm between the two sides in that contract negotiation.

However, if Gaborik was effective in shootouts and his shootout statistics counted, maybe the numbers they'd be discussing would be $9-9.5 million/season instead of $8-8.5 million. It's those quantifyable numbers that have the potential to wrongly skew the numbers in certain players' contracts.

Another issue is how do you decide which shootout goals would count? If more than one player scores, and you're only counting the game winner, whose goal gets the credit? What makes one goal more important than another if the only difference is who scored first? If the first guy didn't score, the second guy wouldn't be in position to score the "game-winner" in the shootout, it would be the guy after him.

And what about goal scorers for the losing side? Didn't they do just as much to score as the guys on the other side who made the same sweet shoulder fake backhanders? There are just too many questions that need to be answered.

I just don't think the statistic should count in any official capacity. I know the numbers are already being tracked and they are easy enough to get a hold of. They are a fair indicator of who performs well in a shootout when given the opportunity to do so. I just don't think they belong in a record book in anything but a trivial capacity.

Tom Brokaw is yelling at me for exceeding my time limit and not paying attention to the debate lights, so I will end for now.

 

[gamebreakers]

When Brodeur passes Roy's wins record, I predict that there will be a huge amount of whining due to Marty's 27 shootout wins (most of any goalie since it started as per Doc Emrick).

There should be a stat for shootouts as they are a huge part of the game these days... pools should use them and there should be a trophy for shootout performer of the year... you know, that guy who single handedly gets his team into the playoffs after scoring a pile of shootout winning goals!

I think a shootout win shouldn't be considered an outright win under a goalie's stats. It skews the record books for sure. With no ties anymore, it inflates a goaltender's win total. I think it should be wins, losses and shootout wins (which would kind of be like a tie in the old NHL)

 

[NJDEVILS30]

I think a shootout win shouldn't be considered an outright win under a goalie's stats. It skews the record books for sure. With no ties anymore, it inflates a goaltender's win total. I think it should be wins, losses and shootout wins (which would kind of be like a tie in the old NHL)

In one way I agree because there are more wins flying around these days, so win totals are inflated, no denying that... but on the other hand, I disagree with that because nobody earns a shootout win more than the goalie who shuts the door on the other team's best players...

I know a lot of people see a win total and say something like:

"oh, but he has "x" shootout wins"

I don't see how this negative perception of shootout wins is justified... I mean the goalie played to a tie through 65 minutes and beat his opponent in a 1 on 1 battle of wills.

For example, how can you not give a goalie (in this case Brodeur just because he happens to be the best in the game AND the best at the shootout ) credit for a win when he shuts down Nylander, Semin and Ovechkin in a shootout?

 

[gamebreakers]

In one way I agree because there are more wins flying around these days, so win totals are inflated, no denying that... but on the other hand, I disagree with that because nobody earns a shootout win more than the goalie who shuts the door on the other team's best players...

I know a lot of people see a win total and say something like:

"oh, but he has "x" shootout wins"

I don't see how this negative perception of shootout wins is justified... I mean the goalie played to a tie through 65 minutes and beat his opponent in a 1 on 1 battle of wills.

For example, how can you not give a goalie (in this case Brodeur just because he happens to be the best in the game AND the best at the shootout ) credit for a win when he shuts down Nylander, Semin and Ovechkin in a shootout?

The difference is none of the goalies from the past (i.e. Roy, Sawchuk) had the chance to get those "extra" wins rather than ties. I'd still recognize the shootout win, just not in the wins total but in a separate column altogether

 

[NJDEVILS30]

The difference is none of the goalies from the past (i.e. Roy, Sawchuk) had the chance to get those "extra" wins rather than ties. I'd still recognize the shootout win, just not in the wins total but in a separate column altogether

I see your point there for sure, but it is the way it is I guess... So am I supposed to wait until Brodeur gets 552 non-shootout wins before I go nuts?! If so, he is all the way back at 515... You're just delaying the inevitable! hahaha

I would like to listen in on some of the league discussions about this... how is it that goalies can get wins, but players get nothing for putting the puck in the net?

They should also have a "ridiculous shootout move" award every year...

** For the record, I count shootout wins as wins, and will still litter the HI boards and any other boards I can find with "Brodeur Rules" threads the second he stops a shootout attempt to record W #552.** :dance: