KSA, PWCC, and PSA

MMarch

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This might be long winded so I apologize in advance, but I believe people who purchase graded cards should be aware of situations like this in the hobby.

I purchased 3 graded cards in PWCC auctions on EBAY. 2 of them were graded by PSA, one by KSA. I received the 3 cards quickly from PWCC, but when I opened the package the drama began. The KSA card was sandwiched between the two PSA cards with no protection between them. I don't know how or when it happened but when I separated the cards, the KSA holder literally fell apart in two pieces and the card hit the floor, thankfully it was carpet, but this is what I was left with:

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I've heard complaints before about KSA holders but never saw it in person until now. When I inspected the card closely with a loop, something just didn't seem right. The color of the card stock was off, the printing was way too crisp for a card of this age, and my gut told me something just wasn't right here. So, although I needed the card for my set, I decided I needed to contact PWCC and discuss the issue. I called the day I received the card and talked to someone who told me he needed to talk to someone else who wasn't available at the time. He said they absolutely will take care of the issue, took my info, and said I would receive a call back later in the day. No call came, so the next day I called back in the afternoon and once again was told they had all the info, the person was aware of the issue, and promised a call back in an hour or so. Again, no call. I sent an email the next day asking for an update, no response. So, 4 business days after receiving them I called one more time, told them they were leaving me no choice but to send it out for re-grading at my own expense and I needed to hear from them as to what they wanted me to do. Of course, that call went unanswered as well.

That lead me to the PSA adventure and unfortunately my situation did not get any better. I filled out the online forms, paid for the "Express" service, and shipped it Priority Mail to CA. It arrived and took them 8 days just to check it in to their system. The "Express" service says it takes 5 days on average, and of course, on day 5, it still said "Oder still in process". On day 9 I finally picked up the phone and called, got a very nice person who looked it up and apologized saying he had no idea why it was taking so long. He did say he would investigate and try to get it out by today. Well, that's the only thing that actually went well and tonight I got the email that my credit card had been charged by PSA, and of course they still charged me for the "Express Service" even though I didn't actually get the Express Service. I rushed to my computer to look up the order with great anticipation as this is the last card I needed for my set, I can finally say I have completed this beautiful set! I click the order and instantly felt like someone kicked me in the gut. There in all it's glory is this wonderful message:


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So yeah, I'm pretty pissed at this point. Not only am I left with an incomplete set and an altered card, because PWCC took their sweet time ignoring me, and PSA took their sweet time not providing the service I paid for, I am outside the 30 day window with EBAY. So, what do I do now. Some might say you should have just filed for a return with PWCC when I got it from them. I certainly can see that opinion, but this was the last card needed for my set and they very rarely come up for sale in decent condition. But, if PWCC actually provided customer service and said they are happy to take it back, or maybe even split the cost of having it re-graded, I would have chosen that option. But after 3 calls and an email were ignored, I didn't have any indication that they cared to even try and resolve the issue in any way.

So, what would you do if you were in my shoes? And for all those who believe KSA is a reputable company, here's another example of a card being altered that they have no problem giving a grade of 6. I know for sure I will never again buy a KSA card for any reason.
 
I don't know, man...hindsight being 20/20 here, I would never have sent the card out to be regraded by anyone. When that card arrived with the case split like that, I would have contacted PWCC and given them every chance to correct the issue. This is their auction and therefore, their card (I realize it's a consignment card). If they gave me a blank stare, I would have filed something with PayPal and returned the card.

At this point, I think you're pretty much screwed. You've changed the holder the card is in (I get that the case came split, but you've "altered" the card by having it regraded), KSA can easily say that that's not the card they graded, PWCC can say that they shipped you the card with the case intact and it's all he said/she said from there.

On the bright side, at least it's an altered card (meaning, it's a real card) and not a complete fake or a reprint.
 
I feel for you Tony. It sucks that this happened with the last card for your set.

As far as the express service from PSA, I don't have a suggestion or comment other than you deserve at least a partial refund.

With respect to KSA, I'm with you. I learned my lesson with them more than once. I've had cards in their holders come back from PSA as altered too. They simply do not have the expertise you expect and require from a card authentication and grading company. Sure the guy who owns the company and grades and authenticates cards is a great guy so I've heard, but he's clearly in over his head. And their holders are relative garbage. I had a set of prewar cards that I acquired already KSA graded and no less than half were sliding around within the holders popping out of the black frame inserts. They simply do not use appropriate materials. I took the cards to the KSA booth at expo for reholdering to protect my 5 figure outlay and he said he'd do it after Expo if I could leave them with him. I passed and kept the cards horizontal planning to cross them to PSA anyway. The kicker at least to me was that he didn't care enough to fix them right then and there considering how bad they made his brand look. Total bush league.

As an aside, I sold said set at the following expo (to reallocate the money to baby requirements) and the buyer immediately freed the cards from their shoddy holders and is crossing to PSA. Smart guy.

As for PWCC, based on my experiences with them, I think in the end they will take care of you to your satisfaction. In all of my dealings they have been absolute pros. I also have a feeling the boss has been on vacation so the timing may be an issue. I think they should at least refund you the price of the card and return shipping. The PSA grading expense I think is on you though as it was your decision to pursue that avenue when you could have eventually just returned the card in the faulty KSA holder. You just would have to have waited longer than you wanted for them to get back to you.

In any event, your set is awesome and in due course you will find an appropriate replacement for that card.
 
I don't know, man...hindsight being 20/20 here, I would never have sent the card out to be regraded by anyone. When that card arrived with the case split like that, I would have contacted PWCC and given them every chance to correct the issue. This is their auction and therefore, their card (I realize it's a consignment card). If they gave me a blank stare, I would have filed something with PayPal and returned the card.

At this point, I think you're pretty much screwed. You've changed the holder the card is in (I get that the case came split, but you've "altered" the card by having it regraded), KSA can easily say that that's not the card they graded, PWCC can say that they shipped you the card with the case intact and it's all he said/she said from there.

On the bright side, at least it's an altered card (meaning, it's a real card) and not a complete fake or a reprint.

It does not come back in a PSA holder, it will be in the top loader I mailed it to them in. There is also a very distinct marking on the back of the card that is part of how the card was made and impossible to duplicate, so there's no way they can claim it's not the same card from the KSA holder. I probably should have put that in my original post.
 
Even if outside the eBay window, there remains PayPal. That said, I think Jeremy has the right of it.
 
KSA consistently grades altered cards and overgrades legit ones. Every vintage collector learns that lesson at some point.

PWCC relies on the integrity of the 3rd party service, so it's not their fault. Nonetheless, it's worth asking Brent (again?) for a refund. I know he refunded someone who bought a several thousand dollar Jordan auto that was proven to be counterfeit. They do state, however, that there are no returns on graded cards so you may be out of luck.

PSA only counts business days (Monday through Friday) and starts the clock when the item is entered. For a time sensitive order you have to write the service level (eg Express) on the outside of the package. I've experienced delays like this as well and have been told to always mark the package in order to help prevent it. Regardless, the turnaround times are not guarantees and thus PSA is not obligated to refund you.

From the submission form:
"1. PSA will endeavor to grade cards within the time frame, if any, offered as part of a PSA grading service. However, PSA will have no liability what* soever to Customer for incidental or consequential damages due to PSA’s failure to grade any cards within any time frame. All days are business days."

I'm sorry that this happened, but you may not have any recourse. I'm sure you'll find a nice Bouchard soon.
 
I know you are just talking about these two companies stated policies, but ...

They do state, however, that there are no returns on graded cards so you may be out of luck.

They should perhaps then consider which grading companies they choose to sell.

From the submission form:
"1. PSA will endeavor to grade cards within the time frame, if any, offered as part of a PSA grading service. However, PSA will have no liability what* soever to Customer for incidental or consequential damages due to PSA’s failure to grade any cards within any time frame. All days are business days."

Well, that's pretty nifty. PSA will charge for a supposed upgrade in service they won't promise to deliver. How does that work? "Pay us an extra $5 per card and we might get to it faster."

Domino's should adopt that model - "Your pizza in 30 minutes or tough crap!"
 
If your PayPal payment came directly off your credit card, and not PayPal balance, you may be able to get support from your credit card company. I had success with that avenue before, albeit it several years ago.
 
Thanks for the input everyone, I appreciate it. After a 24 hour cool down period I'm not quite as pissed off anymore. After all is said and done with PSA and PWCC, it is a $147 lesson learned. As much as I wanted to finish the set, I should have just filed a claim for Item Not As Described through EBAY and returned it to PWCC since the holder was opened. I still feel like PWCC as the seller should have at least responded to my calls and emails, but it was my choice to send it to PSA so lesson learned I guess.
 
KSA consistently grades altered cards and overgrades legit ones. Every vintage collector learns that lesson at some point.

PWCC relies on the integrity of the 3rd party service, so it's not their fault. Nonetheless, it's worth asking Brent (again?) for a refund. I know he refunded someone who bought a several thousand dollar Jordan auto that was proven to be counterfeit. They do state, however, that there are no returns on graded cards so you may be out of luck.

When PWCC doesn't consider KSA cards to be "graded cards" you know KSA is not viewed to be in the same class or calibre as the big 3 (PSA,Beckett,SGC) or even GAI.

Look at the top right on page 2 of their submission form.
 
PSA's service levels are brutal, they are a poorly run company. I grade with them because it makes financial sense but otherwise can't stand them. The conflicts of interest are unreal, and the card that they built the company on - the Mastro Wagner was trimmed, they knew it, and slabbed it.

All that said, PWCC will take the card back or PayPal will make you whole. I think the cure period is something like 90 days. But it won't come to that because the card was delivered in a ruined state and PWCC will take it back.
 

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