Malaise For Hockey Cards

[TMLFan3]

Anyone feeling malaise currently for hockey cards like me? I am. UD is really taking the wind out of my sails. We need competition. Blah.

 

[Avalanchefan21]

Wouldn't say malaise is the word, but kinda tired of products such as "MVP, trilogy, artifacts"

Everything is so watered down and a lot of newer products just don't appeal


Would love to have all this licensing BS gone so any company could make cards. There has to be a way the NHL could make more $$$$$$$ by having multiple companies produce licensed products

 

[will-411]

I always wonder if people forget all of the complaining that was happening when there were multiple manufacturers... There are too many products, so many products are crap, it's impossible to collect everything I want... and of course, the manufacturers were having a hard time trying to be viable with a limited number of products. It's fine to remember the good parts, but don't forget the bad parts.

Really, the only option now, and even then, is to vote with your wallet. If you don't like what they're putting out, spend your money on something you do... I can't see the landscape changing back to a competitive model.

Just my 5 cents.

Cory

 

[BlindThomen]

The malaise I have had or quite a while is the product prices.

- Sauli

 

[quincy]

I always wonder if people forget all of the complaining that was happening when there were multiple manufacturers... There are too many products, so many products are crap, it's impossible to collect everything I want... and of course, the manufacturers were having a hard time trying to be viable with a limited number of products. It's fine to remember the good parts, but don't forget the bad parts.

Really, the only option now, and even then, is to vote with your wallet. If you don't like what they're putting out, spend your money on something you do... I can't see the landscape changing back to a competitive model.

Just my 5 cents.

Cory

THIIIIIS

 

[Avalanchefan21]

Wax prices are high in every sport/trading card product (ie: pokemon) so while its unfortunate, I get it. Good things often go without being said, a few things I really like that UD is doing:

- Dazzlers inserts are awesome
- Inserts in cheaper products look great and are creative
- Young Guns still serve as an iconic RC
- OPC Platinum/Allure serve as a good "prizm" type product
- The CUP always is a product with kick *** cards
- Ultimate Collection Shields
- SP Game Used card have game used stuff from big events (SCF, ASG, etc)
- Design of metal universe cards
- Game dated moments
- UD always puts in "retro versions" of cards (ie: 03-04 exquisite, old school young guns, etc)
- Nice to see AHL/CHL get a product too every year



A few things I'd maybe like to see from UD:
1) A one game used card per pack item (kinda like 01-02 pacific private stock):
- would open a few for $15 a pack, include a few base cards, 1 insert, and 1 parallel... make it a retail product

2) High end Rookie product, maybe something like where all of the actual set chase rookie cards are short printed to the player jsy #
- base set could picture every player in their rookie year (ie: use a photo of Mackinnon from 13/14, Crosby from 05/06 etc).
- Have memorabilia cards include more than just jerseys, include sticks, pucks, gloves, etc.
- Have a focus on 90% of the mem cards being rookies

3) Autograph only product.
- Every single card in the product has an autograph.
- Have players use every color sharpie out there to sign (including crazy colors like orange, pink, neon green, etc... would love to see more signatures using a red/green sharpie.
- Each pack has 5 cards, all are autos. Call the set Upper Deck "inked up".
- Include cut autos
- maybe have photos of players signing stuff for fans
- Have a puck surface, jsy surface, clear game used ice surface... have the players sign over the top of that
- Have a redemption 1/1 chase card for certain players where players will sign the card to a person
- include those dumb "banner" cards from spgu in these and have players sign the banner


Where you at PJ_upperdeck

 

[Tachyon]

One thing I do like about Upper Deck... the Young Guns. You cannot hit a $500+ rookie card in any other sport. Maybe Soccer but I have only ever opened one box so I honestly don't know.

The rookies in the staple product in the other 3 major sports yield $20 cards maybe.

However, wax prices are so expensive and the return is generally crap if you don't bust and sell the week it comes out. It's hard for me to even get by. I have to buy a product that cost $400+ just to land one good card? And no guarantee you get even $200 back on a product that costs $400+. But you MAY get a $500 card. However, I just bought a box of 21-22 Metal Universe for $125 because the $15 eBay coupon was running out and I decided to use it on that. There was no auto. No Jambalaya. No PMG. No, whatever the other huge insert is you're supposed to get in a box. Nothing. I turned $125 into maybe $20. Good job Upper Deck. And if I did get an auto it likely would have been a $2 auto. If I complain to Upper Deck they will send me a $2 auto.

I sat on a box of 22 Topps Gold Label because the price was going up huge. I sat on it for 2 months. Then I won some money on sports and decided yeah, let's open it! Crap. The auto is a guy batting .133. One parallel card happened to be a /99 of Shohei, they sell for $30-$40. So that's what I got out of the box, about $50 worth by hitting 1 of the 3 best players in baseball right now.

Malaise I find is a fitting word. It's the time we live in. There is a huge influx of collectors that are not even collectors, just flippers, because there is a ton of money in cards since the pandemic. The pandemic changed many things. I do not see the price of wax going down at all since inflation will be coming on little by little for many years. There are many bigger things at play here than just cards.

I'm tired of the crap every company pumps out unless you're willing to fork over half a paycheck. I'm tired of not hitting anything seemingly ever. But I have the worst luck imaginable. My cousin just hit 2 Bedard SPGU cards in a 2 box break from CnC. His first auto card and a patch. Yeah... he's like "too bad it wasn't the Patch/Auto". I said, "Yeah too bad you didn't just turn $50 into $3,000+ you lucky soab"

I don't know why the other companies cannot make cards like ITG did. A small part of me died when ITG left. Now I have to buy President's Choice cards and some Leaf cards even-though themoney isn't there in Leaf, but it's what I like and it appeals to me. I cannot afford to spend $10,000 on Upper Deck products to land anything decent.

 

[capsfan30]

A few things I'd maybe like to see from UD:
1) A one game used card per pack item (kinda like 01-02 pacific private stock):
- would open a few for $15 a pack, include a few base cards, 1 insert, and 1 parallel... make it a retail product

We will never, ever see another $15/pack, 1 gu/pack product again. If UD does decide to do something like that, it will be at a minimum $50/pack, and be loaded to the gill with 4th liners. Not that there's anything wrong with 4th liners, but superstars and other big names will be SSSSSSP that only breakers will hit, so what difference does that make compared to what happens now?

2) High end Rookie product, maybe something like where all of the actual set chase rookie cards are short printed to the player jsy #
- base set could picture every player in their rookie year (ie: use a photo of Mackinnon from 13/14, Crosby from 05/06 etc).
- Have memorabilia cards include more than just jerseys, include sticks, pucks, gloves, etc.
- Have a focus on 90% of the mem cards being rookies

Isn't that basically what they do now as it is? Look at things like The Cup, Black Diamond, etc etc, where the entire product is basically centered around trying to hit the top rookie of the set. Anything less than that and you're hosed. On top of all of that, the rookie mem in any product like that will 99.9999999% most likely be event or photo shoot worn memorabilia, which most collectors aren't a fan of to begin with.

3) Autograph only product.
- Every single card in the product has an autograph.
- Have players use every color sharpie out there to sign (including crazy colors like orange, pink, neon green, etc... would love to see more signatures using a red/green sharpie.
- Each pack has 5 cards, all are autos. Call the set Upper Deck "inked up".
- Include cut autos
- maybe have photos of players signing stuff for fans
- Have a puck surface, jsy surface, clear game used ice surface... have the players sign over the top of that
- Have a redemption 1/1 chase card for certain players where players will sign the card to a person
- include those dumb "banner" cards from spgu in these and have players sign the banner

Isn't this kind of what they made products like Buyback and Clear Cut to be? Only 1 card/pack in those two, but in essence that's what they are. Remember what I said about a 1 gu/pack and how much it would cost? Yeah, multiply that by 5-10x, and that's how much this product will cost, and the print runs will be the same as well. Same result, different day.


While I appreciate trying to come up with ways to change things up, today they just aren't feasible. People that don't have disposable income for days have enough trouble with todays' market as it is.

Heck, the only two products that are even remotely in my price range anymore are O-Pee-Chee and MVP, and the better hits in those two products are worse than 1/case. I accepted a long time ago that wax busting was no longer for me, but trying to add products like this is only going to further line the pockets of breakers, and cause more malaise of those who buy into them, only to have their team hit nothing.

 

[BigBarracuda]

Perhaps I have a different perspective, but I too struggle with the current landscape.

As much as Upper Deck is an easy target (for hockey), when I look back at some of the designs and set configurations, it does look like they continually seek out new ideas or concepts. Even as a very small custom card maker, it’s way tougher than you think to come up with new ideas; endlessly. It also feels like they’ve put significant effort into material creativity as well as printing options/printing quality.
The card size is a limitation, plus I’m confident both the NHL and NHLPA are limiting factors too. When I take a step back to get a broader perspective, they do create some nice stuff.

ITG is missed, period. In my brain they’ve always been somewhere between fringe and niche. It doesn’t mean they didn’t do great stuff, because they did. Clearly their absence continues to tug at our heartstrings because most collectors have some degree of ITG in their collections (me included). Even with that said, I believe that even if they got a license back, they would remain fringe/niche.

Leaf. If all companies were to get licenses, it is my opinion that Leaf wouldn’t be able to compete (quality or volume).

And at least the three companies above have a history in hockey, and experience producing hockey products. Any other business’s entry into the market would be a step backwards at least in the short term, possibly long term.

So, in summary I’m good with Upper Deck’s commitment to hockey. A competitor could improve that, but I’m not convinced it would be a significant improvement (on products).

That leaves price. IMHO price is less influenced by Upper Deck than perhaps we think. They create a product, and based on the costs associated with the production/delivery of the product, they apply a margin that they feel they should get. Once the product goes to market, Upper Deck gains no additional monies if the product takes off.
Collectors impact pricing way more than they realize, but more on a macro scale. The foundational price is set by Upper Deck’s price point per case. Any other increase in price is driven by collectors and middlemen. Collectors will pay what they can afford (generally) for a card they really want.
Middlemen – as time passes the hobby has really turned into more of an investment/profit center for the middleman. And when you think back maybe 15 years or more, the only real middlemen where the stores (including eBay). But now there are so many platforms where middlemen can sell their cards/sets/boxes. Although I have no data to pull from, it really appears that the hobby has experienced a huge uptick in the number of people trying to profit from the hobby.

So ya OP, I feel you. I’ve typed way more than I thought I would LOL, my apologies. For me, I focus on my collections, and I try to avoid the profit game. Specifically, when I sell my cards at shows/etc I keep that money in my hobby. I’m not trying to build a retirement package on the hobby.

 

[odjickfan]

Nothing is perfect, a lot of products are diluted and over-priced. Personnally, I made some changes into the way I collect to continue having fun. I'm opening 1 OPC Hobby box every year, and I'm buying UD1-2-3 retail boxes for cheap when there's a great sale on them. I broke a bit of OPC Platinum 20-21 retail during a sale and I broke a box of SP Legends, and I'm skipping most of the other products. I'm keeping the Habs hits in my breaks, and most of the other stuff goes to my tradelist. I didn't buy many singles in the past few years, there's nothing that feels like I must have them. I started collecting vintage, and I still enjoy trading for Habs and Nordiques. My tradelist is getting very long, my daughter told me that she would like to open an ebay store when she's older and start selling some of my stuff on her free-time. I think it's a good idea, I'll start her with some lower-end inserts so that she learns the game and build feedback. A great opportunity for her to learn about business and make some extra dollars. I don't have the time myself to list thousands of cards with a full-time job, young childrens and lot of stuff to care of.

 

[Tachyon]

Well said, BigBarracuda. You pretty much nailed it.

So you think about this recent article about Fanatics pushing out Topps by limiting the amount they can produce by going through the same company/entity that they do. ITG or any other company that were to have a license in hockey would not be able to compete with volume at all. Even during the Pandemic UD said they had to seek out now companies to produce the actual cards and they had to go through a company in Germany (supply chain issue). So I agree with the new methods / materials they use to make cards. Lot more acetate these days, likely for a more significant reason than we think.

And yes, coming up with new designs for 40-whatever products a year HAS to be tough. Lots of retro these days. Lots.

I've had an amazing (I think) card design in my head for a decade now. I think it's so good that I haven't really bothered much to think of other designs or ideas... but what if I had to? I would be stumped.

I do like Upper Deck and everything they do, really, but the overall feel of the market as a whole is causing me to feel some malaise. And my collection is 90% hockey and 10% the other 3 major sports. I don't know how I would feel trying to get into the other sports so I just do not try.

Hell, I had a sick Magic collection back in the day, some very high-end stuff at the time, but they were stolen from me 20 years ago and I never got back into it. I hate to think about what some of it would be worth now and I would also hate to think I would actually feel if I was STILL into Magic and into Hockey at the level I have always been into it.

Nice topic discussion, OP.

 

[LeafGregg]

Perhaps I have a different perspective, but I too struggle with the current landscape.

As much as Upper Deck is an easy target (for hockey), when I look back at some of the designs and set configurations, it does look like they continually seek out new ideas or concepts. Even as a very small custom card maker, it’s way tougher than you think to come up with new ideas; endlessly. It also feels like they’ve put significant effort into material creativity as well as printing options/printing quality.
The card size is a limitation, plus I’m confident both the NHL and NHLPA are limiting factors too. When I take a step back to get a broader perspective, they do create some nice stuff.

I would put our quality up with anyone.... designs, athletes, innovation. Volumes don't always need to be nosebleed

ITG is missed, period. In my brain they’ve always been somewhere between fringe and niche. It doesn’t mean they didn’t do great stuff, because they did. Clearly their absence continues to tug at our heartstrings because most collectors have some degree of ITG in their collections (me included). Even with that said, I believe that even if they got a license back, they would remain fringe/niche.

Leaf. If all companies were to get licenses, it is my opinion that Leaf wouldn’t be able to compete (quality or volume).

And at least the three companies above have a history in hockey, and experience producing hockey products. Any other business’s entry into the market would be a step backwards at least in the short term, possibly long term.

So, in summary I’m good with Upper Deck’s commitment to hockey. A competitor could improve that, but I’m not convinced it would be a significant improvement (on products).

That leaves price. IMHO price is less influenced by Upper Deck than perhaps we think. They create a product, and based on the costs associated with the production/delivery of the product, they apply a margin that they feel they should get. Once the product goes to market, Upper Deck gains no additional monies if the product takes off.
Collectors impact pricing way more than they realize, but more on a macro scale. The foundational price is set by Upper Deck’s price point per case. Any other increase in price is driven by collectors and middlemen. Collectors will pay what they can afford (generally) for a card they really want.
Middlemen – as time passes the hobby has really turned into more of an investment/profit center for the middleman. And when you think back maybe 15 years or more, the only real middlemen where the stores (including eBay). But now there are so many platforms where middlemen can sell their cards/sets/boxes. Although I have no data to pull from, it really appears that the hobby has experienced a huge uptick in the number of people trying to profit from the hobby.

So ya OP, I feel you. I’ve typed way more than I thought I would LOL, my apologies. For me, I focus on my collections, and I try to avoid the profit game. Specifically, when I sell my cards at shows/etc I keep that money in my hobby. I’m not trying to build a retirement package on the hobby.

I disagree and take offense! I don't really take offense, but I disagree. Leaf is in prime position to not only compete but thrive if given the opportunity to engage with the league.

With Pearl, ITGU Hockey, Ultimate Hockey and Lumber Hockey among other products, we have shown we can make valued and compelling products.

Competition itself makes everyone strive to improve, that includes Leaf.

I can say that upcoming Ultimate and ITU Hockey have sold through, so someone thinks we can make products compelling enough.

We may not be everyones cup of Tim Hortons, but we do give collectors a choice if they want vintage and legendary players, signatures and memorabilia


Either way, collect what you like and never let me or anyone tell you what you should collect and enjoy nor how to collect. if there were 4 companies making hockey cards, I am sure they would all offer something unique (especially leaf)

 

[Avalanchefan21]

Cool to see you are on here Gregg!

Have any ideas what you guys will be doing with the "between the pipes" trademark?

Any chance we'll see more hockey specific releases this season?

Have a great day!

 

[capsfan30]

I disagree and take offense! I don't really take offense, but I disagree. Leaf is in prime position to not only compete but thrive if given the opportunity to engage with the league.

With Pearl, ITGU Hockey, Ultimate Hockey and Lumber Hockey among other products, we have shown we can make valued and compelling products.

Competition itself makes everyone strive to improve, that includes Leaf.

I can say that upcoming Ultimate and ITU Hockey have sold through, so someone thinks we can make products compelling enough.

We may not be everyones cup of Tim Hortons, but we do give collectors a choice if they want vintage and legendary players, signatures and memorabilia


Either way, collect what you like and never let me or anyone tell you what you should collect and enjoy nor how to collect. if there were 4 companies making hockey cards, I am sure they would all offer something unique (especially leaf)

I have an honest questions for you, Gregg, if you have a moment.

IF Leaf were to acquire a license, do you think the company would continue to make products as it has? Meaning, are all of your products going to continue be "high end" (1 pack/box, 5-6 cards per, all GU and/or auto)?

I can understand why Leaf works the way it does now. Not a whole lot of sense making base cards of current players (or in general) without the ability to use trademarked logos.

Would that mindset continue, or would Leaf then have the "little guys" in mind and start producing low-end sets, such as MVP and OPC from Upper Deck? Or a set which focuses on the rookies and makes staple cards for them, in the same vein as Young Guns in UDS1/2/Extended?

I only ask because I think THAT is what BB was trying to get at. Not that you wouldn't be able to produce products of a similar style that you already are, but not at the quantity which coming with a license could/would require.

 

[sdpdesign]

For me, it is not collecting someone from this year’s card class, and the products still coming out for 21-22 still coming out. Are they going to have 21-22 THE CUP? in 2024? Drop a year like they did in the late 00’s.

Part of the chase were the prospects. Everyone knows that that new products reign in new interest because of the RC class in it. You are hyped for the RC that has turned up his game and has new hype behind them. This is good since the future is unknown. How many products did you open up this year where the RC is back in Russia, traded at least once, or is back in the minors as a 1&done player? Most of them for me. OPC & UD flagship were the best for these prospect players this year, everything else seems to be behind a year or two.

An example of what I mean-
I like Laffy…he was great in 20-21 products. You know what is not great about Laffy? His production, his current hype has fazed out. Here is an odd stat…new players this year: Harvey-Pinard & Parssinen, drafted in 2019, both 7th round, are both on pace to out point Laffy in the same NHL period as Laffy has right now (216gp, 91pt). H-P has 38gp, 21pt=>190gp, 105pt. Parss has 45gp, 25pt=>180gp, 100pt. Bernier (2021 2nd overall), if he plays a full season at the same pace of pt production will have 172gp, 126pt. Dawson Mercer from his same draft class has 7 more points than him in 52 less games!! And pulling Laffy from a $1200 box of THE CUP, how much hype do I get pulling a 1st overall 3rd liner?
* To defend Laffy…the Rangers fluked into drafting #1. If drafted 1st overall by a different team, his point production would be better. Redraft that 1st round without NYR at #1, he would still go 1st…Detriot had the best odds, landed at 4, got Raymond, Ottawa odds were 2 & 3, they landed 3 & 5, Stutzle & Sanderson, Kings were 4 and landed 2nd with Byfield. Imagine the cascade of change from that one detail.
Also, Rangers have been 2 lines deep stacked. They need to get rid of some of their current faces of the franchise to make space. Tough decision to do when you are winning.

Yeah, there are some good players coming up and we are not seeing them because we are still focused on players that have not proven themselves. Laffy currently is not Joe Thornton, he would be happy to be Daigle, but he is currently…not Yakapov, but Patrick Stefan territory. We are currently collecting guys who are past the prospect impact phases and paying too much. This is wear. We will not see the end of this for a while. The single manufacturer will see to this.

Also, just curious, does the other sports have a backlog like hockey? Basketball which is technically the same season period is current? Right?

 

[FrozenInferno]

Panini has a backlog too I believe, but apparently Fanatics bought the printing facility Panini relies on so they’re not getting preferential treatment like maybe they used to and it’s hurting the release schedule.

There are only a handful of facilities that can print cards like this and with everyone fighting for time on the production lines and wanting to increase print runs at the same time it’s getting harder and more expensive to get cards made. UD had to turn to a print shop in Italy to get sets made in recent years and that probably adds a ton of cost to the process as all those cards have to be shipped stateside once they’re made. It’s hurting collectors big time because box prices are constantly going up while the amount of packs/cards we get is always going down. Less for more and getting worse all the time.

I gave up ripping hobby wax long before the pandemic boom and now I can’t even justify buying blasters anymore at these prices. Neither can lots of other folks apparently because my Walmart is overloaded with S1/S2/Extended/Platinum blasters that nobody is touching.

 

[LeafGregg]

I have an honest questions for you, Gregg, if you have a moment.

IF Leaf were to acquire a license, do you think the company would continue to make products as it has? Meaning, are all of your products going to continue be "high end" (1 pack/box, 5-6 cards per, all GU and/or auto)?

I can understand why Leaf works the way it does now. Not a whole lot of sense making base cards of current players (or in general) without the ability to use trademarked logos.

Would that mindset continue, or would Leaf then have the "little guys" in mind and start producing low-end sets, such as MVP and OPC from Upper Deck? Or a set which focuses on the rookies and makes staple cards for them, in the same vein as Young Guns in UDS1/2/Extended?



I only ask because I think THAT is what BB was trying to get at. Not that you wouldn't be able to produce products of a similar style that you already are, but not at the quantity which coming with a license could/would require.

The truth is, if multiple companies had a license, each company would change its approach. Especially us. We would pivot to collectors that want all types of products as now we would have logos, current stars and rookies at our disposal.

The leagues would have a say in what they expect. Rules would be a bit different. We would adapt.

 

[LeafGregg]

Cool to see you are on here Gregg!

Have any ideas what you guys will be doing with the "between the pipes" trademark?

Any chance we'll see more hockey specific releases this season?

Have a great day!

2023 ITGU Hockey will release soon

2023 Ultimate Hockey will be next (it features over 30 different players signing inscriptions/nicknames!)

Between the Pipes/Masked Men type products, unfortunately, do not get the interest to make a stand alone at this time, so we will continue to use as inserts in other releases.