Ranking Jagr among the greats

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With Jagr likely to pass Mark Messier and move into 2nd all-time in points, I'm wondering where people rank him - if at all - in the conversation about the best players to ever play the game.
 
I remember those last days in Pittsburgh and his stint with the caps and Rangers he was not liked by players or fans. He goes away for a few years then comes back and turns into a good news story. All of a sudden he is a top all time player and fan favorite. I think he was skilled and his conditioning helped him hang on longer than most. Not sure if he is top 10 definitely not top five. He put up a lot of points which don't make you a best all time, look at Orr.
 
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Considering the time he missed due to lockouts/KHL and the era he played in, he's got to be way up there. In terms of non-goalies, he ranks in my top six along with (not in any order) Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Orr, and Lidstrom.
 
This is a tough one. Initially I thought "Well, obviously top 10", but a deeper look and there's questions. On the one hand, he's going to retire second in points. Then you have the factors like longevity, infrequently being the best player on his team, one Hart Trophy (albeit 3 Pearson awards). He's a big body who respects his conditioning, and he's achieved a lot.

His individual honors put him in the same camp as 90s peers like Sakic, Lindros, Fedorov, the type of players who are (or should have been) first ballot HoFs (let's not fight about this), and maybe just one rung below Messier, Roy, Brodeur, Hasek and Brett Hull, whose effect on the game was arguably more significant.

He definitely belongs in the top 25. Top 10 feels like a reach. When we ask these questions, it's usually in terms of "When X was at their best, how great were they?" And at Jagr's best, he was in Lemieux's shadow - much like Messier/Gretzky before Gretzky was sent to L.A. and Messier's identity as a leader was really established.

If someone pressed me, I'd say somewhere between 16-20th among greats.
 
Top 5? Top 10? Top 25? One of those three is true.

Let's leave goalies out of it (makes it harder to deal with)

Gretzky, Howe, Orr (in any order) are generally considered the top 3. Does Jagr crack that? No.

Who are the next two? Lemieux, and Richard ? Bobby Hull, Brett Hull ?? Messier? Yzerman? Lafeur, Esposito, Bossy, Lidstrom, Robinson ? Sakic? Mikta? Dionne? Believeau ?

Honestly - I don't know enough pre-Howe to really include those guys (Malone, Lalonde, etc) so I'm leaving that out.

I think for my money - Lemieux & Richard are the two names to round out the top 5. I'm probably forgetting someone else I shouldn't be.... but the rest of the top 10 comes from that list of names I just wrote, plus Jagr.

I think Jagr has to be ranked higher than Yzerman or Sakic. I think higher than Mike Bossy too. Same with Guy Lafleur (but age bias might be coming in here... I was born in 1980). I think take Dionne off the list as well, same with Stan Mikita

I think I still rank Esposito and Messier over Jagr.

So I guess I need three names to round out my top 10.... and I'm picking from:

Jagr, Hull, Hull, Beliveau, Robinson, and Lidstrom.

More I type, more I think I won't include Beliveau..... and I like Jagr over either Hull.

Soooooo..... I have him in the top 10, somewhere in the 8-10 range.




Top XXXXX all time though.... really subjective. We all have different ways of evaluating, and while I think it's easy to say he was a better player than Yzerman, there's probably a few of you that will disagree.

My question: If he doesn't leave for the KHL for 3 years.... how many points does he have today? If I take the average point total of the two seasons on either side of that (before and after) which is a pretty arbitrary way of doing it... I'd get 62.5 per season. let's call it 63 since he's only had 3 seasons with a total that low.

63 x 3 = 189.

He probably let 25 points on the table in the shortened 12-13 season, 75 points in the wiped out 04-05 season, and I'll bet an easy 60 in the shortened 94-95 season.

That's another 160 on top of the 189.

Obviously that's a lot of "what ifs". What if he plays 81 games in 94-95, but in game 81 he blows his knee out?

What if he doesn't go to the KHL? Maybe he doesn't come back and look re-energized later in life?

I just don't think it's a stretch to suggest he could have racked up another 350 points (yup, I rounded up 1 again) if he hadn't gone to the KHL, and hadn't lost time to lockouts.

Think there's a GREAT chance that he could be closing in on 2225 right now... be far and away the #2 all time scorer, and he'd be getting very close to passing Gretzky in career goals (if he hadn't already) How many of those 350 fictional points would be goals? 100? let's say 100. He'd be within 50 of Gretzky, and could still play another year past this one.
 
lots of great points in what has been posted that i agree with and a few i don't. yes he is going to finish second in goals scored and points but...

was he ever a true leader? did he make those around him great?

two huge questions that need to be yes's for me if i am to even consider someone in the top 10 even the top 25.
there is a lot more to being one of the "greats" then just points.

is he great at hockey, yes. is he one of the greats, yes, most years was he the best player on his team, no. is he top 10, no. is he top 25, maybe.

also someone mentioned a lot of "what if's", well if it didn't happen why are we talking about it? "if" we go down that road "what if" Lemieux didn't have cancer, knee and back problems, and played 1800 games.... etc. So lets not go there.
(totally didn't want that to sound offensive or confrontational, i just always have to remind myself if i start if'ing there is no end)

For me this is not an easy question to answer and i will have to take some time to consider. but right now i can say he is not top ten.

Great topic!


Sean
 
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It's pretty hard to rank. Depends what you're criteria is.

Gretz, Orr, Howe are top 3. Lemieux is 4th for me just out of pure skill. Doug Harvey, Rocket Richard were different eras, so hard to compare, and same with positions.

If we're looking at Jagr's era, he is the top. And I can't think of a more dominant power forward for such a long time. He did lose his desire and focused on the financial side for a bit, but the stint in the KHL showed him how good he had it, and came back refreshed. Older and wiser?? Cherapanov incident??

Could he slot in at #5? Maybe, depends on the criteria, but I wouldn't say it was crazy to have him there. For sure top 10.
 
All time? Top 10? I wouldn't put him there. Like others have said, points aren't the only thing to consider. His longevity has assisted him with putting up career top 2/3 points. I'd put Sakic and Yzerman ahead of him. And Lidstrom even. But here's my list:

Givens ahead of him:
Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Howe
Richard
Crosby
Toews
Beliveau
Yzerman
Lafleur
Roy
Brodeur
Messier

Others I'd put ahead of him:
Sakic
McDavid ( yeah I know its early but he looks like the best in the world right now and Jagr never held that distinction)
Ovechkin
Lidstrom
Selanne

Others I'd consider and a group I think he belongs in:
Bobby Hull
Doug Harvey
Mikita
Bossy
Hasek
Phil Esposito


So I completely agree with pathshot that he'd fall in that 16-20 range.
 
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gomaz said:
All time? Top 10? I wouldn't put him there. Like others have said, points aren't the only thing to consider. His longevity has assisted him with putting up career top 2/3 points. I'd put Sakic and Yzerman ahead of him. And Lidstrom even. But here's my list:

Givens ahead of him:
Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Howe
Richard
Crosby
Toews
Beliveau
Yzerman
Lafleur
Roy
Brodeur
Messier

Others I'd put ahead of him:
Sakic
McDavid ( yeah I know its early but he looks like the best in the world right now and Jagr never held that distinction)
Ovechkin
Lidstrom

Others I'd consider and a group I think he belongs in:
Bobby Hull
Doug Harvey
Mikita
Bossy
Hasek
Phil Esposito


So I completely agree with pathshot that he'd fall in that 16-20 range.
Click to expand...

I never really liked Jagr very much as a player, but I don't think I'd even say he wasn't the best player in the world at one point.

Look at his stats from 1997-2000. Four consecutive Art Ross Trophies. Right in the heart of clutch and grab hockey. You can say points aren't everything but four straight scoring titles is domination (Look up the list of guys to do that. Pretty good company). Another thing to consider is that had he not lost 3 seasons to lockouts and 3 seasons to the KHL, that he might be looking at challenging Gretzky's all time goal record.

I would have trouble putting him ahead of Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Lemieux and Roy. Given his success (2 Cups, Olympic Gold, World Championships), longevity, stats, I don't think you can keep him out of the 6-10 group all time.
 
I hate Jagr but I think I'd slit him in the 6-10 range as well. I think he's behind the top 5 but ahead of many on the above list.
 
Ok, I'll say it. For North Americans (and particularly Canadians) to list him as "better" than some of the patron saints of Canadian and American hockey is a bitter pill for many to swallow. If he was a Canadian or American kid with the same career stats this would be a completely different conversation.
 
Definately in the mix for 6-10 spots.

He is in that range both in total career and peak.

Most career game-winning goals – 133
Most career overtime goals – 19
Most career points by a right wing - 1 868
Most career assists by a right wing - 1 119
Most single-season points by a right wing – 149
Most single-season assists by a right wing – 87
Most single-season points by a European-born player – 149
Most single-season assists by a European-born player – 87
Most career goals by a European-born player – 750
Most career assists by a European-born player – 1 120
Most career points by a European-born player – 1 868
Most career game-tying goals by a European-born player – 11 (tied with Teemu Selänne)
Most career shots on goal by a European-born player – 5 424
Most career playoff game-winning goals by a European-born player – 16
Most consecutive 30-goal seasons (1991–2007) – 15 (shared with Mike Gartner, including the shortened 1994–95 season, 48 games)
Most consecutive 70-point seasons (15) (including the shortened 1994–95 NHL season, 48 games)


Award Year(s) awarded
Art Ross Trophy 1995, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001[65]
Hart Memorial Trophy 1999[66]
Lester B. Pearson Award 1999, 2000, 2006[67]
Bill Masterton Memorial Trophy 2016[68]
NHL All-Rookie Team 1991[69]
13× NHL All-Star Game selection 1992, 1993, 1994, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2016[70]
NHL First All-Star Team 1995, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2006[71]
NHL Second All-Star Team 1997[71]
Stanley Cup champion 1991, 1992[70]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9U_82xmxDI
 
I hate these lists/best of/top something. It's like googling politics, everyone finds a list/article to suit their agenda and align with their views.

If you base it on objective qualifiers such as goals, points, GWG, etc, nothing subjective, he's top 10 all time.

Let's just leave it there before I tell you why Mattias Norstrom is more valuable than him. :rolleyes::laugh:
 
Iceman said:
I never really liked Jagr very much as a player, but I don't think I'd even say he wasn't the best player in the world at one point.

Look at his stats from 1997-2000. Four consecutive Art Ross Trophies. Right in the heart of clutch and grab hockey. You can say points aren't everything but four straight scoring titles is domination (Look up the list of guys to do that. Pretty good company). Another thing to consider is that had he not lost 3 seasons to lockouts and 3 seasons to the KHL, that he might be looking at challenging Gretzky's all time goal record.

I would have trouble putting him ahead of Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Lemieux and Roy. Given his success (2 Cups, Olympic Gold, World Championships), longevity, stats, I don't think you can keep him out of the 6-10 group all time.
Click to expand...

OK fine he was "among the best in the world" for four years when there wasn't much competition for that title. Gretz had slown down with only 90 points in 97-98, and Lemieux was out with cancer. That said, we can reach as far back as the early 1900's so those four years don't make or break someone's inclusion in the top 5 or top 10 etc of all time.

His time in the KHL is a lot of coulda shoulda woulda.

And if his success, longevity and stats are the driving force, where is Henri Richard, Larry Robinson, Ron Francis, Mark Recchi, Larry Murphy, Brendan Shanahan etc.

As this is an opinion thread I'll stick with my original post, nothing anyone else has said is convincing enough to sway me. But I do respect all of your opinions even if I disagree :)
 

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