The Hockey Card Licensing Thread

[RGM81]

Since somebody asked in another thread, it seems a good idea.

Let's keep it civil, and let us have a nice discussion on what we would like to see with regards to the hockey card market in the future.

Also, can somebody please clarify, because it's always iffy in my head: is it after this season or after the 2010-2011 season that the UD Exclusive expires?

 

[northendhockeynut]

Also, can somebody please clarify, because it's always iffy in my head: is it after this season or after the 2010-2011 season that the UD Exclusive expires?

I'm not 100% sure but I read somewhere that it ends Oct / Nov 2010

 

[Boom Boom]

It'll be interesting to see if some cardboard karma comes out of this.
Perhaps the very collectors the current contract holder has shafted with their substandard product and inferior customer service can be the ones who finally put an end to this monopoly and get this hobby back on track.....

 

[blindros88]

As a collector I long for the good old days of pure, unadulterated competition among licensed NHL card manufacturers. I truly miss those days. Most of my favorite cards were produced during this time. The Leaf Lindros Collection, BAP Millennium, The 1999-00 Upper Deck Patches, Country of Origin cards, etc.

I also miss the days when I never once doubted a piece of memorabilia on a card. Those were the good old days. I believe competition could go a long way to bring this feeling of security and confidence back.

If I had a say that mattered on the subject, I would align things like this:

Three manufacturers, each with "limited" licenses.

Each manufacturer gets 5 products: One low end ($25 to $40 per box), Three mid range ($75 to $150 per box) and One high end/super premium ($175+ per box)

One additional restriction: Each manufacturer is only permitted one product with a memorabilia card in each pack.

 

[carmichaelpt]

I hate to be the one to say this, but this is how I feel.


For one, last I heard, no one really knows when the exclusive ends, as there were rumblings a while back about an extension already been signed.

Also, it is great to look at a collector, but the NHL and NHLPA (in particular), don't seem to know how to run their own businesses (the NHLPA is in complete shambles right now), so I wouldn't trust either entity to make an informed decision on the matter, so if Upper Deck were to ask for the exclusive again, with the previous relationship already there, I would think the easiest thing for them would be to simply extend things out.

I don't like it, but I feel that is the most logical perspective on it in my opinion.

 

[gomaz]

If ITG gets a license, does the price of their product go up?

 

[SkyFire47]

considering i predominantly buy UD products and singles, the exclusive doesn't affect me one way or the other. do i mind other card companies producing cards? of course not but what i do care about is the ability of UD to stay in business. locking each company down to a few products may impede their ability to make money. if that were the case, i'd rather have one company making all the products and staying in business rather than all companies, with limited product, all going under.

 

[trpnwillie]

What I'd like to know, is:

How do we, the collectors, get our ideas and opinions heard - aside from speaking with our wallets?

 

[blindros88]

considering i predominantly buy UD products and singles, the exclusive doesn't affect me one way or the other. do i mind other card companies producing cards? of course not but what i do care about is the ability of UD to stay in business. locking each company down to a few products may impede their ability to make money. if that were the case, i'd rather have one company making all the products and staying in business rather than all companies, with limited product, all going under.

I don't think a limited number of products prevents profitability. In 1998-99 and 1999-00 ITG only made two products. Dr. Price could chime in on this, but I think they had some degree of success to continue adding products each year until the lockout.

There is something to be said about quality over quantity. Take a look at products like BAP Millennium and 2001-02 BAP Memorabilia. Those products, especially BAP Memorabilia, were deep with great cards. Just because there is a limited number of products does not mean that the manufacturers cannot pack value into those products.

Would you rather have a limited number of sets with multiple well thought out and appealing memorabilia sets that are actually different and distinguishable, or have 25 products that look mostly the same?

 

[Khabby]

Let's be honest here.
Upper Deck "**** the bed" with the Exclusive they had. Driving lots of collectors away from the hobby because of their inadequacies {I'd list them but don't want to blow-up the bandwidth} should warrant them absolutely no consideration for any more licensed Hockey cards. Get it right or don't do it at all! We are sick of your uncaring, cavalier attitude toward the hobby and think maybe you need a rest and/or re-education of the hobby.

 

[SkyFire47]

I don't think a limited number of products prevents profitability. In 1998-99 and 1999-00 ITG only made two products. Dr. Price could chime in on this, but I think they had some degree of success to continue adding products each year until the lockout.

to me, the buildup sounds like growth. you don't start off with guns ablazing when you're not sure of the logistics behind what it takes to run the company. as they gained experience and knowledge, they were able to expand. can't say that's ITG's particular case but businesses in general. and even then, your example of ITG kind of ends itself in that ITG was able to expand their lineup. they wouldn't be able to do so if they were limited to a particular number of products.

There is something to be said about quality over quantity. Take a look at products like BAP Millennium and 2001-02 BAP Memorabilia. Those products, especially BAP Memorabilia, were deep with great cards. Just because there is a limited number of products does not mean that the manufacturers cannot pack value into those products.

Would you rather have a limited number of sets with multiple well thought out and appealing memorabilia sets that are actually different and distinguishable, or have 25 products that look mostly the same?

Pacific, Score, and Pinnacle all had great products and were distinguishable. i even liked Donruss and Topps back then too. 3 are done, partially because you had a limited number of sets that weren't well thought out.

Let's be honest here.
Upper Deck "**** the bed" with the Exclusive they had. Driving lots of collectors away from the hobby because of their inadequacies {I'd list them but don't want to blow-up the bandwidth} should warrant them absolutely no consideration for any more licensed Hockey cards. Get it right or don't do it at all! We are sick of your uncaring, cavalier attitude toward the hobby and think maybe you need a rest and/or re-education of the hobby.

role reversal? your feelings make it seem like the cards are the hobby to UD and we're the ones taking their jobs seriously. :laugh:

 

[geerhed19]

If it was up to me they would grant a license to every company that wanted to make cards, and there would be no limit on the number of products any of them could produce. Give the consumer as many choices as possible, and only the the best will survive. That's the way it should be. The more competition there is, the better each would have to make their products. And we'd have the highest quality in cards to collect.

 

[blindros88]

Pacific, Score, and Pinnacle all had great products and were distinguishable. i even liked Donruss and Topps back then too. 3 are done, partially because you had a limited number of sets that weren't well thought out.

Score and Pinnacle failed because they never got on the game used memorabilia bandwagon. And don't forget the Pinnacle Be A Player disaster. You can still find unopened cases of that stuff because it was printed by the billions...

Pacific failed because of the lockout. Their core business was hockey, and unfortunately they were a distant third in the hockey market. They had some innovative concepts in their insert sets, and they had game used memorabilia. What they didn't have was market share. They were a small company from Texas, not exactly known for its enduring love of hockey. People also forget that Pacific got its start making unlicensed football cards. They could have continued to make cards, they just didn't have any more money.

 

[FrankToronto]

A few years ago when the exclusive first came to be and there was plenty (plenty!) of discussion about it, I remember that there was a general consensus that appeared very obvious to me...

In general, collectors want to see about 3 manufacturers producing 5-6 products each. So 3 manufacturers with a total of 15-18 product releases. I remember very clearly from reading tons of posts on the subject that that's where the majority of collectors would like to see things fall.

3 manufacturers provides for enough competition and not simply head-to-head competition in the case where there are 2 manufacturers.

15-18 product releases is well more than enough to satisfy the needs of this hobby and maintain a lid on over saturation of product and cards.

If this were the case, the hobby would be a lot more exciting and products and cards would stand out more and have greater meaning attached to them as opposed to simply being over produced and out of mind like they are today.

An end to the over saturation of product will open the doors for new collectors and grow the hobby. Whereas, today, so many shy away because they are overwhelmed with the choice of products released. If regular members on message boards can't keep up then how can casual hockey fans?

 

[blindros88]

A few years ago when the exclusive first came to be and there was plenty (plenty!) of discussion about it, I remember that there was a general consensus that appeared very obvious to me...

In general, collectors want to see about 3 manufacturers producing 5-6 products each. So 3 manufacturers with a total of 15-18 product releases. I remember very clearly from reading tons of posts on the subject that that's where the majority of collectors would like to see things fall.

3 manufacturers provides for enough competition and not simply head-to-head competition in the case where there are 2 manufacturers.

15-18 product releases is well more than enough to satisfy the needs of this hobby and maintain a lid on over saturation of product and cards.

If this were the case, the hobby would be a lot more exciting and products and cards would stand out more and have greater meaning attached to them as opposed to simply being over produced and out of mind like they are today.

An end to the over saturation of product will open the doors for new collectors and grow the hobby. Whereas, today, so many shy away because they are overwhelmed with the choice of products released. If regular members on message boards can't keep up then how can casual hockey fans?

Very, very well said sir.

 

[bprice]

Thanks for separating this discussion from the other, it is appropriate.

There are certain things I can say in this thread and other things I cannot. One thing that won't get me in trouble is the truth.

Some of you on other threads have guessed at what is going on and have come very close to the truth, others have posted comments that are not correct.

In The Game has done everything we possibly could to stay in business after losing our licenses. Did this bother the NHL or the NHLPA, not sure but we had no choice.

If we did not stay in business and closed as Pacific did, we would not be in a position to apply for licenses.

It is our understanding from the NHL that the exclusive ends on June 30, 2010.

We do not know if an extension has been granted.

Topps and Panini are other contenders for licenses. Although Topps is well known in the trading card business one must remember that twice in the last ten years they gave up their hockey license. Panini who manufacturer hockey stickers don't have relationships with retired players, have not game-used memorabilia and in my opinion have their hands full with their new exclusive basketball license.


I think that In The Game has earned the right to have a NHL and NHLPA license. We have earned that right by our commitment to the hobby and its collectors and our dedication to the sport of hockey.

Do we want an exclusive license, no. Just give us a level playing field with as many other licensees as they choose and we will make the type of products that collectors want and will treat collectors with the respect that they deserve.

Your thoughts!

Brian Price
In The Game

 

[Boom Boom]

I think that In The Game has earned the right to have a NHL and NHLPA license.

I couldnt agree more. Here's hoping that you get it Dr Price. The sooner the better.

 

[pacadie]

First, I want to clarify one thing: I buy and collect Upper Deck and ITG stuff. I am not into very high-end collecting, so I have managed to stay clear of 90 % of Upper Deck QC problems. But I have heard of them on this great site.

Dr Price's post made me realized one thing: if ITG was not a consummer friendly company they would have been out of business since a long time.

They have to overachived themselves to compete with a giant like Upper Deck. And they do it every year. If their consummer service and quality control were not so good, they would be out of business.

They also offer variety and, let's say it, GREAT hockey cards sets, even without producing cards of actual NHLers! Take just one minute to think about it. This is HUGE.

But more important, I think, ITG listen to us, collectors. Remember the 1972 set? This is us who vote for the creating of this set. Is ain't it amazing?

So, to resume: ITG is still in business because of the quality of their operations (at every levels); Upper Deck is still doing hockey cards because of their exclusive licence; in a competitive market, their flaws would be too heavy to overcome.

As for the OP question: what I hope for is a competitive hockey cards market, easy to understand and to access for the kids, but also serious enough for the grown-ups.

Like some others, I am in favour of a three licenced companies limited to 5 or 6 products each. What I wish for, though, is three STRONG companies, no bozos who will stay in the industry for one or two years before backing of.

 

[LumpyGumby]

I agree with the statement that ITG deserves the license, they've fought hard to stay relevant even when faced with obstacles, and the few times anything has gone wrong with their product, they've aimed to and most times have fixed it.

But I also want them to have the license because it would force UD to fix a lot of their problems. I'm not saying UD is bad at all though, as several of my favorite sets have come from them, but they are in dire need of fixing certain aspects.

But I'd also look forward to what innovations other companies could do, like Topps. I sadly got into this hobby in the 05-06 season, so I don't have first hand experience with other companies before the exclusive, outside of stories and picking up singles.

If the NHL or NHLPA or whoever is in charge of deciding if the exclusive exists actually listens to the consumer, they'll see there's little to nothing wrong with letting other companies try there hand at it.

 

[steen101984]

If it was up to me they would grant a license to every company that wanted to make cards, and there would be no limit on the number of products any of them could produce. Give the consumer as many choices as possible, and only the the best will survive. That's the way it should be. The more competition there is, the better each would have to make their products. And we'd have the highest quality in cards to collect.

I like it its either sink or swim.