The Hockey Card Licensing Thread

Raffi31 said:
In regard to your first 2 responses....you did take my words out of context and I still don't agree with you. You don't neglect your duties of making the players more money with already proven and reputable businesses no matter how much you love the person on the other side of the table. That is just a fantasy. I'm not going to rehash why other companies didn't get a chance to negotiate because it has been done already. But I can say that it had nothing to do with them being so overjoyed with Upper Deck's work that they just had to take less money for the NHLPA to sign with just UD. Ludicrous if you believe what you wrote.
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first, they made money off the deal. was it the most? who knows. do most here like the way it went down? again, who knows? but probably not. also, it isn't fantasies for businesses to continue doing business together without shopping around. there is brand loyalty. you're right in that the NHL and PA probably shouldn't be doing it but that's not to say that doesn't happen.

what is clear here though is that you are either taking yourself out of context or are simply unable to convey your message the way you want to. even in your response to Stadium below you note several points:

Raffi31 said:
Stadium Sports: Maybe I didn't make my point clear. I am not saying location is not the factor in who should make cards.
I am saying that if someone who works for the NHLPA and has the players interests as their first and main priority as they should, then there is no way that a company in California gets an exclusive before looking around.

I don't know you at all but can tell by the fact that you were able to type and respond in this thread that you have some intelligence. So I ask you.
If you were working for the NHLPA and you had power enough by yourself to negotiate the hockey card contracts would you settle for an exclusive contract from Upper Deck...a company in California even though you knew that ITG (as an example of another company) that was located in Canada, produced solely hockey cards, had worked well with you in the past, and was extremely passionate about hockey was out there and wanted to make cards again? Or would you tell UD you'd get back to them, talk with other companies, realize that you could make more money for the NHLPA by not signing an exclusive? I know what just about every single person on this board would do. .......including yourself. I am confident that unless there was some sort of incentive in it for you personally that you would never sign an exclusive without listening to other companies. You can argue that if you want but that was my point of location. That was why I pointed out differences in ESPN and TSN in terms of hockey coverage and also why I pointed out where the Hockey Expo was located and not whose businesses were there. Because I was trying to show that when there is an established company that specialized in hockey not even getting negotiated with that there is something wrong.

I am not pro ITG or anti UD by any means. (although if you must know H&P is my favorite set). I am a hockey fan, will always buy hockey cards no matter who makes them. But it pisses me off how the exclusive went down and I have never liked it or wanted it and can never figure out why it happened.
Thanks to this thread I now know. And based on recent NHLPA events it is far from surprising. Hopefully if they ever get their association back in working order things in the hockey card industry can get sorted out.
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1. YOU constantly mention location.

2. as i mentioned before, THAT company in California produced cards in all the big sports at the time and was THE company to talk to.

3. i agree with you that perhaps ITG or other vendors should've been considered but NOT because they are a company in Canada that "lives and breathes hockey." that has nothing to do with it. that decision should be based on merit, NOT location and ideals.

by your own logic, UD now lives and breathes hockey also since they lost their licenses in other sports and since UD has always been bigger than ITG, how about they live and breathe hockey more than ITG then?

4. a company (not saying ITG) located in Canada that lives and breathes hockey can still be a crappy company. crappy companies aren't limited to location.
 
I agree this has to stop.....

upsideneely.jpg


That's one of my Cam's that's upside down.....

But seriously I do wish that it was an open market with everyone being able to get a License it's the same with Video Games...... I thought Monopolies were illegal....i guess not in sportscards and video games if you have the $$$$ you can buy out the competition and no longer care about puttting out good products.
 
hawkeenut said:
Also if ITG gets a license can they produced an unlicensed product like H&P??
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That part isn't true. H&P *is* licensed by the CHL/AHL. They've got full logos, full player shots, the whole nine yards. It's not an NHL/PA-licensed product, that is true, but they do have a full license to make those cards that we all enjoy. That wouldn't likely be affected if ITG were to get an NHL/PA license again, much the same as UD's hockey license isn't affected by their baseball license.
 
Well one thing we all have in common is our passion for the hobby.We all have our opinions and we all want what is best but in reality it boils down to dollars and cents ,it's out of our hands.

After reading the rest of the thread,Dr P is on a very fine line as he's run's a business right in the thick of this dicussion. We are very fortunate for him providing some insight as we cannot expect him to discuss everything. Thank you Dr P for reaching out to us, that alone speaks volumes for what his company stands for . Dr P is one of the people who has the the power to change this hobby when oppertunity arises,encourage this people.....


As collectors,we all know the current situation needs to change. The other end, NHL/PA wants to pull the most money in. Can a couple of companies compared to one make more money for them.We can say what we want but unfortunately,that's the bottom line
 
SkyFire47 said:
first, they made money off the deal. was it the most? who knows. do most here like the way it went down? again, who knows? but probably not. also, it isn't fantasies for businesses to continue doing business together without shopping around. there is brand loyalty. you're right in that the NHL and PA probably shouldn't be doing it but that's not to say that doesn't happen.

what is clear here though is that you are either taking yourself out of context or are simply unable to convey your message the way you want to. even in your response to Stadium below you note several points:



1. YOU constantly mention location.

2. as i mentioned before, THAT company in California produced cards in all the big sports at the time and was THE company to talk to.

3. i agree with you that perhaps ITG or other vendors should've been considered but NOT because they are a company in Canada that "lives and breathes hockey." that has nothing to do with it. that decision should be based on merit, NOT location and ideals.

by your own logic, UD now lives and breathes hockey also since they lost their licenses in other sports and since UD has always been bigger than ITG, how about they live and breathe hockey more than ITG then?

4. a company (not saying ITG) located in Canada that lives and breathes hockey can still be a crappy company. crappy companies aren't limited to location.
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For the last time. I mention location to point out the fact that the NHLPA did not give other companies a chance. Could I be more clear? They are competing companies. One is in California and one is in Canada. my point is that anyone with any background in hockey would at the least listen to the one in Canada who had been making hockey cards, etc. I'm not going to respond more on the location thing except to clarify that it had to do with the NHLPA not looking out for the players' best interests. I could sit in Buffalo and not see much hockey on ESPN and then go 1/2 hour a way and see hockey nonstop on TSN etc. So in terms of HOCKEY if you are going to sign a license for hockey players, wouldn't you at the least listen to a company based in an area that caters to hockey? That is my point. That the NHLPA was not looking out for the players and there probably something in it for the negotiator to overlook the other companies.
 
Any individual agreements would remain with the rights owner unless said owner was bought out (eg. Fleer's contracts all went to UD).

As for Canada vs. US made, The only time collectors look at printed in line is for the OPC/Topps Stadium Club cards pretty much.

As for marketing to the States, you have to remember that the US doesn't do nearly as much business in hockey. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure that UD has said repeatedly that their hockey bread and butter is Canada.

The US for the mostpart doesn't give two craps about hockey and hasn't since the hayday of Gretzky. It's practically an afterthought in most media coverage.

So if you have a sport that doesn't draw, the souvenirs wont, and that includes sports cards.

Bearing that in mind, Brian has gone to The National I believe every year, was at Sportsfest most years etc. marketing in the states is also extremely hard because there are very, very few channels to do so.

Plus, in terms of US players, the predominant non-NHLers are in the NCAA, and there are strict rules that you can't have current collegers in products. the NAHL is not even a blip on the radar because so few players go from there to the NHL.
 
RGM81 said:
That part isn't true. H&P *is* licensed by the CHL/AHL. They've got full logos, full player shots, the whole nine yards. It's not an NHL/PA-licensed product, that is true, but they do have a full license to make those cards that we all enjoy. That wouldn't likely be affected if ITG were to get an NHL/PA license again, much the same as UD's hockey license isn't affected by their baseball license.
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I know that, but in negotiations is this something the NHLPA will want gone?? Just a question??
 
Raffi31 said:
So in terms of HOCKEY if you are going to sign a license for hockey players, wouldn't you at the least listen to a company based in an area that caters to hockey? That is my point.
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No, the NHL/PA should've listened to any company in general who proved their product was something consumers wanted. it's a no brainer that BOTH UD and ITG cater to hockey. why do you think UD went out and got an exclusive in the first place?

also, on another point raised, i understand the Canadian market is majority hockey but is that actually larger than the American market?
 
Let's hope if we can make it to the negotiation table, that we will be able to negotiate the ability to continue to produce Heroes and Prospects. It is very important to us.

The CHL and the AHL were there for us when other weren't and we are very loyal to them.

This product is also important to a segment of the hockey collecting population and we are loyal to them as well.

Brian Price
In The Game
 
A brief history of NHLPA:
Aug 31,2009 30 player reps vote "overwhelmingly" to oust Paul Kelly
Early Sept 2009 Ian Penney appointed
October 31,2009 Penney resigns
November 1, 2009 Chelios, Blake,Lidstrom, and Recchi appoint Ouelett Acting Dir.
That is the definition of a Dysfunctional group!!
No wonder Dr. P "only" hopes he can get to the negotiation table.
Maybe we should be sending our comments on the "Exclusive" to Chelios, Blake,Lidstrom and Recchi as it seems they or their agents are running NHLPA.:|
 
That is not a bad idea, who knows what the players were told about the hockey trading card license.

Not sure their agents would care but the players might.

Brian Price
In The Game
 
SkyFire47 said:
No, the NHL/PA should've listened to any company in general who proved their product was something consumers wanted. it's a no brainer that BOTH UD and ITG cater to hockey. why do you think UD went out and got an exclusive in the first place?

also, on another point raised, i understand the Canadian market is majority hockey but is that actually larger than the American market?
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YES!! I guess you are right in that I wasn't getting my point across clearly.
"The NHLPA should'ave listened to any company in general who proved their product was something consumers wanted".
That sums it up perfectly. What I have been trying to say......and obviously bringing location into it was more confusing than anything.........was any one of us working in Saskin's spot, and supposedly looking out for the best interest of the players would have listened to all companies offers and proposals. Companies from California to Canada would have had equal and fair shots. Certainly no company would have been shut out of negotiations, especially companies focusing on hockey that had produced multiple NHL products quite successfully for a number of years.
 
Some thoughts....

*Dr. Price is there any chance that we collectors can affect the NHLPA in any ways so you get the license back?

*Someone said that "now playing" and "retired players" should be separated and no Joe Mullen in a $100 box. But my personal thoughts is that I hope that ITG continues to make nice varied sets with variated players. And this makes it funnier for us collectors that collect those not well known players and underestimated players. I rather se 1 Vanbiesbrouck-, 1 Morenz-, 1 Barrasso-, 1 Probert card etc then 5 Crosby cards. ;-)

*I have never been in contact with anyone in UD. But that much I can se that ITG really cares about their collectors. Like Dr. Price is here on this board and taking time to talk with us. And you at ITG are allways friendly and easy to talk to.

*Dr. Price, That ITG is more or less in like a chair between "without license" and "with license" and at the moment not knowing if you will get your license back, does this situation affect the product ideas for 2010 more then those years when you didn't have the license to hope for?

So I really hope that you get the license back so you can bring the hockey cards to the level you want and to compete with UD with the same conditions.

/Christofer
 
Making hockey cards over the last five years has been a challenge. Because of the way we lost our license, I took the challenge and it has been a long hard five years.

With collectors' support we have stayed in business.

I don't know that if the NHL/NHLPA chooses to continue the exclusive or if they choose to license other companies and exclude us, if the collector support will be there.

Would we like to make NHL Rookie cards, would we like to use full body images, would we like team logos on our cards. YES, YES and YES. But that was taken away from us and we sure would like to get that right back again.

If we did, I feel that we can compete at every level with any card company in the business at making cards collectors want and treating collectors fairly.

I can't predict the future, but I am hopeful that with collectors support the NHLPA will see the light.

Brian Price
In The Game
 
tmoneywon said:
I agree this has to stop.....

upsideneely.jpg


That's one of my Cam's that's upside down.....

But seriously I do wish that it was an open market with everyone being able to get a License it's the same with Video Games...... I thought Monopolies were illegal....i guess not in sportscards and video games if you have the $$$$ you can buy out the competition and no longer care about puttting out good products.
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Got something for you....


scan0874.jpg
 
chicagoblackhawksfan said:
That's 2 more than any upside down ITG autos I've come across.
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as I said in a different thread, that doesn't happen (or at least happens less) with Topps and ITG because the printing on their stickers help direct which way a sticker is supposed to go.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned - i seem to recall back in 05-06 that the NHL and the PA said that any licensing in the card market would now be joint agreements - that you can't have one and not have the other, unlike what UD has now with the MLBPA and not MLB and what Topps has with the NFLPI and not the NFL.

So under those circumstances, if ITG, Topps or any company was to sign with the NHL, they'd automatically have the PA agreement also correct?
 
Let's quit with the UD upside down auto's please. I recall a Nabokov auto from ITG Sig Series that was not only missing an auto but was also used as a buy back and reinserted in to product a second time without an auto back when ITG had a licence. It happens, get over it.
 

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