Toronto Expo, UD Series I box prices...Opinions

[malsk]

1) Vendor orders ridiculous numbers of Series I and II to bump up what they get for The Cup and other high-end stuff, then dumps the cheaper product.

OMG yes yes yes. Now you are getting it! I buy a lot of cases so that is why I get good deals. I am their loss leader for better products. I was worried you didn't know how it works.

 

[THSN]

It has nothing to do with UD wanting stuff sold at a certain price. It has everything to do with where your local LCS is getting the product. At that price and with your location? Something something crossing border no taxes something something.

If you want to be done with the conversation in public, that's fine. I just find sunshine to be the best disinfectant, don't you?

 

[malsk]

I just find sunshine to be the best disinfectant, don't you?

Not worth it. Have a sunny day!

 

[fantiki]

It has nothing to do with UD wanting stuff sold at a certain price. It has everything to do with where your local LCS is getting the product. At that price and with your location? Something something crossing border no taxes something something.

If you want to be done with the conversation in public, that's fine. I just find sunshine to be the best disinfectant, don't you?

I didn't buy any Series 1 at the expo, because the RC class is what it is, but I was walking through the aisles and essentially everybody (surely over a dozen of dealers) had it at $80/box. So in your opinion everybody was selling at loss? Why don't they sell online instead if you think that it is so easy to sell online at $90?

 

[THSN]

I didn't buy any Series 1 at the expo, because the RC class is what it is, but I was walking through the aisles and essentially everybody (surely over a dozen of dealers) had it at $80/box. So in your opinion everybody was selling at loss?

First off, I didn't see anyone at $80/box. I saw tons at $90/box, but I'm sure some *******es went to $85 and $80. Let's use $80CDN since it's your number.

It's not my opinion. Cost on Series I was around $75CDN plus tax, which in Ontario makes it $84.75 not considering freight. So yes, $80 a box is a loss. $85 is still a loss when you consider freight, and even $90/box is a loss figuring in the cost of booths ($650/$750 per), travel and everything else.

Is it possible people could get a better deal? Sure. But being forced to buy through distributors means there is a pretty narrow amount of discounting available to us. Could some of these people brought it in from the US without paying the tax? Possible, but not very likely, and especially not in the quantities we're talking about.

As I said earlier, there are a couple possibilities as to why people would dump:

1) Vendor orders ridiculous numbers of Series I and II to bump up what they get for The Cup and other high-end stuff, then dumps the cheaper product.
2) Vendor has the stuff on consignment from a distributor and just returns what they don't sell at the end of the show.

The first possibility sucks because it helps destroy the market for lower-end product, but I can't beef too much about that considering UD is actively doing it themselves through ePack. The second would mean the distributor was just trying to recoup its cost on product, which would allow for it to be sold below standard dealer cost, but it would also mean screw those of us who preordered product and can't simply hand it back at the end of the Expo.

Why don't they sell online instead if you think that it is so easy to sell online at $90?

Not everyone is allowed to sell current product online. You have to be a UD Authorized Internet Retailer. I was, but gave it up.

I'm also not sure I get your point. The sellers I listed above ARE selling it at well above $90 tax in - otherwise why would they bother putting it on their site? The Expo is an odd duck. People come and expect to get deals on boxes when they are already getting free stuff. *shrug*

I would not be surprised to see Upper Deck completely reconsider the redemption program after this. Why would they spend thousands upon thousands of dollars and countless manhours of preparation just to see their flagship product get crapped on?

 

[malsk]

As somebody who has attended the Expo for the past 7 years, the undercutting has always been started by one seller, Imperial Garden. Every year they are selling at pretty much cost within 2 hours of the show opening and this year was no different. Unfortunately, the distributors and UD choose not to do anything despite it being a recurring theme every year show that I've been in attendance. It makes it difficult on the dealers in attendance at the show. Either keep the product at normal price and don't make any sales or match and don't make any profit.

On Sunday UD caught wind people where selling for $80. Randy from UD came and talked to Kenny (owner) as someone told him they where $80. He never went below $90 that I saw. Randy and Kenny called me over and asked if I knew where it was $80. At that time I did not. Just want you to know UD did step in.

Do with this info as you like...

 

[piper1]

So to recap this entire thread; by the last day of the show some dealers were apparently selling Series One for what it is really worth. For the dealers who didn't like it, your beef should likely be with UD and their Canadian Distributors.

 

[g-force]

On Sunday UD caught wind people where selling for $80. Randy from UD came and talked to Kenny (owner) as someone told him they where $80. He never went below $90 that I saw. Randy and Kenny called me over and asked if I knew where it was $80. At that time I did not. Just want you to know UD did step in.

Do with this info as you like...

Kenny may not have had $80 on the price tag, but I heard him sell it to a few people for $80 as I was passing by his booth or looking at some of his items. Every year I've been to the Expo I've seen him below Upper Deck's so called floor price right at the start of the show or within 1-2 hours. From my discussions with other UD dealers, this is fairly common knowledge.

 

[malsk]

Just to add to my above post. I did ask Kenny to not involve me again about pricing. Being a stock trader I believe in a free and open market. Dealers should be allowed to sell for whatever they feel is right. Be it a loss or not. Sometimes you just have to cut bait and take a loss. Other dealers don't see it that way and put their product away. Good for them as they obviously feel it was undervalued.

If the product was really worth $105 it started at prices would not have needed to be dropped. Markets always find a true balance.

 

[Triple B]

It's comical reading this whole thread. The Fall Expo is three days out of 365. You all know coming in here what it's going to be like. I'm stunned that the prices were as out of control as they were this Expo as in the past, there has seemed to be some serious regulations behind it all. I suspect there is some resistance going on in the background. I'd love to speculate but that wouldn't be good.

I remember telling another LCS here in Toronto that instead of complaining about how low the prices are, walk in there like a baller and buy it up and sell it at your shop and make your money.

Here are your two problems:

1. You'll get curbed on your ability to buy The Cup or any other high end because the wonderful distributors you deal with are holding a gun to your heads. You buy X amount of THIS and you can buy X Amount of THAT.

2. UD 1 and 2 are now ticking time bombs. You have a certain period of time before people turn away from it and that is when this stuff hits ePack and the bottom falls out from under the value of the Young Guns. The big ones will remain big, the commons drop to pennies.

I don't own a shop so maybe I'm way off base (and I likely am) but I've always seen Expo as a way for you to promote your store, not a massive revenue stream.

Anyway, as you were. All of this shows just how ill our hobby is becoming.

 

[THSN]

So to recap this entire thread; by the last day of the show some dealers were apparently selling Series One for what it is really worth. For the dealers who didn't like it, your beef should likely be with UD and their Canadian Distributors.

And yet I and dozens of other shops in Canada continue to move the product at $89.99-$99.99 plus tax. So is the true value of the product what it sells for through normally channels, or what one idiot decides to sell it for in a single venue?

 

[THSN]

It's comical reading this whole thread. The Fall Expo is three days out of 365. You all know coming in here what it's going to be like.

From my standpoint, I don't particularly care about the prices going so low. It'll sell fine at the store. I'm more concerned with the damage it does to the brand and how it hurts the other vendors who do rely to some extent on selling some wax.

I remember telling another LCS here in Toronto that instead of complaining about how low the prices are, walk in there like a baller and buy it up and sell it at your shop and make your money.

Buy it up, carry 100 cases of Series I when ePack comes out in two weeks and carry that inventory when you can just get it from your distributor for $4 more a box? That's how you end up without a local LCS.

Here are your two problems:

1. You'll get curbed on your ability to buy The Cup or any other high end because the wonderful distributors you deal with are holding a gun to your heads. You buy X amount of THIS and you can buy X Amount of THAT.

True, but remember this is the system UD wanted - not to have to deal directly with us stores. And it only makes sense - why would anyone allow someone who hasn't supported them all year to swoop in and buy up all the good stuff? Hell, I put a limit on how much Cup I sell to people who aren't my regulars.

2. UD 1 and 2 are now ticking time bombs. You have a certain period of time before people turn away from it and that is when this stuff hits ePack and the bottom falls out from under the value of the Young Guns. The big ones will remain big, the commons drop to pennies.

If I could put Lana Kane yelling, "YUUUUUUPPPPP!" in here, I would.

I don't own a shop so maybe I'm way off base (and I likely am) but I've always seen Expo as a way for you to promote your store, not a massive revenue stream.

Anyway, as you were. All of this shows just how ill our hobby is becoming.

You're not far off base. You may not own a store, but your experience with the TCS and knowing store owners (and generally just being a good dude) means you know what's up.

I've never looked at the Expo that way either. I use it to move some stuff I want to move, buy on the cheap and see friends. If you're trying to get rich off wax, you're gonna have a rough time.

'Cept Grizzly. That guy's a wizard.

 

[THSN]

Just to add to my above post. I did ask Kenny to not involve me again about pricing. Being a stock trader I believe in a free and open market. Dealers should be allowed to sell for whatever they feel is right. Be it a loss or not. Sometimes you just have to cut bait and take a loss. Other dealers don't see it that way and put their product away. Good for them as they obviously feel it was undervalued.

And I want to make clear I don't fault you for taking the prices offered you by dealers. It's not your responsibility to police the hobby.

I would again also point out that I believe some dealers are supplied with product at the Expo, so they have no reason to pull the product when it gets cheap. As long as they are breaking even (or even losing a little), what do they care?

If that's happening, it needs to stop.

If the product was really worth $105 it started at prices would not have needed to be dropped. Markets always find a true balance.

See my post above.

 

[scooby1970]

UD ruined the expo. I wish they would just stay away period........... there just a bunch of showoffs who only take care of their own .. Its the same people that get the same gifts from UD expo after expo..... !@#$%^&* them
This past expo left a sour taste with me at expo and the people from UD can seriously go pound some serious Canadian ice

the old days of expo had dealers that could sell wax at whatever they want... enter ud and their yellow balloons and they control pricing on their new released product

both end sides of the expo had wax dealers blowing out wax.......... I remember buying series 1 for 60-65 a box before ud entered with their yellow balloons

I miss the days when Karvin worked for ud ... he was a guy who cared about any collector and would walk the expo floor and thank people for buying their product

I call ud expo appearance the plastic chris carlin and his puppets

 

[malsk]

the old days of expo had dealers that could sell wax at whatever they want... enter ud and their yellow balloons and they control pricing on their new released product

Honestly scooby1970 I kind of agree here.

Here is the definition of collusion...

Collusion is a non-competitive secret or sometimes illegal agreement between rivals that attempts to disrupt the market's equilibrium. Collusion involves people or companies that would typically compete, conspiring or working together that results in an unfair market advantage. The parties may collectively choose to restrict the supply of a good or agree to increase its price to maximize profits.

Isn't this what is happening?

It is highly illegal but I guess it is what it is...

 

[malsk]

both end sides of the expo had wax dealers blowing out wax.......... I remember buying series 1 for 60-65 a box before ud entered with their yellow balloons

I bought tons off of Pittsburgh Wholesale (Steel City now) back in the day...the Canadian distributors where mad they where blowing out product to the public and asked them to be kicked out. UD backed this and that is exactly what happened.

There are so many things wrong in this industry and the distributors are high on the list to blame.

Sad because I will take advantage of Blowout, D&A, and Steel City Black Friday deals that are always really good.

Why don't Canadian distributors pass the savings along? I would love to be able to buy product in Canada at the same price the US distributors blow it out for.

I picked up Portfolio for $450 US a case (On D&A site now)...seriously fun break for about $28 a box...think we would ever see that in Canada?

 

[jogesc2]

I picked up Portfolio for $450 US a case (On D&A site now)...seriously fun break for about $28 a box...think we would ever see that in Canada?

This is why I buy from D&A, ship to my parents place in California and they'll bring it back to Canada for me.

I like low end stuff and can get 15/16 AHL for $18 CDN a box. You would never see those prices in Canada.

 

[guy_hobby]

So to recap this entire thread; by the last day of the show some dealers were apparently selling Series One for what it is really worth. For the dealers who didn't like it, your beef should likely be with UD and their Canadian Distributors.

I would say the beef would be more with UD. In the past 5 years the release date price on UD1 has risen about 30%. This is greed from the manufacturer capitalizing on the popularity of the product. Topps is doing the same thing with Bowman Baseball.