Why do some players have so many cards despite their merits...?

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Frendo

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I'm a bit stunned by the amount of cards with players like Richard Brodeur, Bill Ranford and some enforcers + players who actually got more love in the hobby nowadays than during the time when they was still active in NHL.

Richard Brodeur has only a bit over 130-NHL game wins plus +170 lost games in his career but just check out hos cards at ebay (absolutely insane!)
Compared with Kirk McLean which had some great season with Canucks but he has almost nothing in cardwise....

Bill Ranford had a great/good stint during 90-92 and 94 but absolutely nothing afterwards he was just back-up from the second half of 96 until his retirement but he got a huge huge huge hobby love (poor Andy Moog who has a such much greater stats but got beaten by him by a landsmile)

I don't understand how Richard Brodeur, Bill Ranford and some more could have so many nice cards from UpperDeck (The Cup, SPx, Trilogy, Parkhurst, Ultimate etc...) while many other greater goales and players has virtually nothing...

Does they have some agreement or contract with UD to produce so many cards as possible...
I know that fan-favorites tends to get many more cards even if theirs stats isn't the best but there are many other fan-favorites or even stars who never gets nice cards....

How come that Bill Ranford + Richard Brodeur + others (I don't have the time to list all) got such many high-ends from UD, what's the story behind it?

I know that he helped the team to finals in 82 despite the team but McLean had still a so much more impressive run to the finals in 93 but yet no hobby love....very strange....!

Just crazy to see a 130-winner gets more cards than 250-400-winners!
Sorry all fans of Richard Brodeur, Bill Ranford, but he and others just taking spaces from players who actually deserves instead of them!

How come that many got a lot more attention in nowadays than when they was active in NHL (especially Bill Ranford who got "crappy" cards when he was active compared with now)???

I'm awfully sorry if someone got offended by that I "insulted" theirs idols....
 
Ranford was a Cup Winner, World Championship winner, Canada Cup winner, and Conn Smythe winner. Those are pretty good credentials if you ask me.
 
I would wonder more for players like McLeish and Bucyk, great players but no one gets excited to pull their autos nowadays due to the fact that they have so many. Could also add greats like Mikita to this.
 
Brodeur is collected by Bruce, and the companies have undertaken a nonbinding unwritten agreement to antagonize him mightily by producing insane numbers of Richard Brodeur cards.
 
I think UD will pretty much take anyone that will agree to sign with them at this point because the crop keeps getting thinner and thinner every year.
 
Some companies are able to establish a relationship with certain individuals. Others are not so interested. For example Pavel Bure doesn't have a single card since 2005 that is produced in a licensed NHL product.

In addition, all about the collect-ability of an individual versus his performance. Some players just have hobby love.

I would like to see more guys have more cards rather than the same individuals over and over again. Thanks to companies like Panini, I actually get cards of the person I collect beyond his rookie year.
 
I'm just a little bit on the biased side here (I know, it's pretty obvious) and no, I don't take any offense to the post. You're sort of correct.

Ranford, as others have pointed out, was not a top goalie in the NHL for 10+ years. There was a short time where it's easy to argue he was a top 5 netminder, but it didn't last. After an injury in Washington, when he lost his starting job to Olaf Kolzig, he never took the reigns as a #1 goalie again.... and retired pretty young (he was only 33 at the end of the 99-00 season, when he called it quits).

As the other posters pointed out though, the difference between him and a guy like Kirk McLean is..... he actually won something. His name is on two Cups, winning the Conn Smythe in one of those years. He also was a winner internationally - helping Canada win the 1991 Canada Cup (was tourney MVP) and was the MVP of the '94 World Championships - when Canada won its first gold in over 30 years.

Because he was a winner with the Oilers, he's also very much part of the last real Dynasty the NHL had. No, he wasn't a member of the first three cup winning teams.... but without him, the Oilers probably don't win #5.

Not that I have anything against McLean..... but you're talking about a goalie that had exactly 5 more career wins than Ranford, while winning nothing of significance, in terms of hardware or titles.

The other one you mentioned, Andy Moog, that is one that surprises me. Considering he won three cups with the Oilers.... and then had some very good seasons in Boston.... I would expect that he'd have more cardboard than he does. My only guess is that he's less willing to sign for the card companies? That could have a lot to do with it too (just a guess though).


Finally, I would also make one other suggestion. Don't discount the idea that UD, Panini, and ITG look at the secondary market (i.e. eBay sales). Ranford's cards sell very well. There are a lot of "Oilers Dynasty" collectors out there, and several harcore Ranford collectors. If including him in 'Scripted Patches' in the Cup means they've made a card that will sell for $40 on the secondary market.... while making one of Kirk McLean means they've made a $30 one.... arn't they better off with sticking Ranford on that card instead? (I really have no idea how well McLean's stuff sells.... just tossing the idea out there).

I dunno. I read threads all the time talking about "eBay steals" where someone got a nice card of a star player, and for dirt cheap. I never seem to be able to get the same thing with Ranford.
 
My intention was never to bash those players I mentioned, I was only surprised by that they got so much more cards than many others....but true that Ranford was great during 1990-1994.

But a bit strange is that he got more cards now than when he was active....maybe I am dead-wrong but he don't got many inserts during 90's....but I wouldn't complain because my own PC-player got +140 (!!!) cards during 10-11 season and his 2nd highest mark was at 98-99 with about 85 cards....when he still was active!

Same with Ken Dryden who has IMO the 3th most impressive stats in NHL ever (only Mario Lemieux & wayne Gretzky has a superior stats) but he got almost no newer cards, I mean really ALMOST no never ones execpt some 1/1 cuts cards....
Maybe he dosn't like that companies are going to cutting his jerseys/gears into pieces and agreed with those companies to not make any memorabilia cards of him?

Yes there many many who collects players from Oilers-dynasty (I know! I missed many Hedberg/Ranford 01-02 SP Tools of Game and every time over +$100! That's insane!) during the 80's but why Andy Moog doesn't appears at more cards than what he got, he has 3 cups with Oilers and played in 2 finals with Bruins that's quite impressive and Bruins is a such classic team but yet extremely few Andy Moog cards....!

Why no Fuhr/Moog/ranford Triple Signings cards, it would be awesome for any Oilers collector....
 
I would think a few things would fall into it. 1st would be the card company hearing from a collector that they are looking for player X. The more collectors or 1 collector that is really active in the hobby will help. If you have a big collection and are sending a email to the company about making player X. Add a link to pics of your collection. The more you collect the more likely they are to listen.2nd the player has to be receptive to signing. While base cards and memorabilia cards don't need signatures. There are a lot of parallel sets that do. 3rd how much stuff do they have left from the player they are not gonna do anymore. They can only have so many non star players so someone has to go. 4th can they find a jersey to cut up.

I am sure there is more. But those would seem like the basics to me.
 
Comes down to Company X has a contract with them and needs to fill out sets.

Or they have a big backlog of sticker autos and they need to fill out sets... Thats why, with UD especially, sticker auto sets in Black Diamond, Series 1 or 2, etc have lotsa 2nd year, second tier players, they are using up overstock from those guys rookie years.

Of which they must have bet the farm on Dave Lenevau
 
Let's also remember that a lot of these retired greats are probably more cost effective to include in products. Most of these guys rely on money from autograph signings to get by because they didn't make nearly as much money as players do today, and they sign a LOT. They can get these players to sign for a fraction of the price of a current star.

Take one look at a site like Frozen Pond for an example: A Bill Ranford signed 8x10 goes for $39. I'll use Ranford as an example because he was mentioned above. A few examples of recent stars, sticking with goalies just for comparison:

Johnathan Quick: $89
M.A Fleury: $75
Martin Brodeur: $125
Roberto Luongo: $125
Antti Niemi: $79

As these are retail prices you can assume that a card company would get a much lower price for bulk autographs, so let's take a guess and say that Ranford signs for around $5-$10 a signature, which is probably still being generous, while a guy like Brodeur might sign for around $45 or higher. If you're in charge of building an autograph set with a mix of players new and old of course you're going to include guys like Ranford if you can get them to sign. If the entire checklist was made up of superstars charging a fortune for signatures the product would be too expensive.

The secondary market may not be kind to some of these players and collectors who are after the latest and greatest may shake their head but guys like Ranford are not only worthy of some hobby love but also financially necessary to help balance out some of the rising costs of producing a set to keep us happy. We all want the big name signatures but we don't want to pay big name prices for packs so that's our alternative.

Other factors probably come into play like the players' willingness to sign a deal, how well he is accepted by the hobby, whether or not there is game-worn material available to use, how well he was treated by card companies in the past, etc. I know Dryden doesn't like people making money off his signature and he's also in politics so I guess he decides to handle himself a certain way so that's not the fault of the card companies.

All retired players have to have deals in place before a card company can use their image and signatures so it's probably a nightmare trying to wrangle in some of these guys to include in your sets when everybody wants things done a certain way or whatever. Remember a short time ago when Vladislav Tretiak ITG cards had an extra disclaimer on the back about the memorabilia not being guaranteed by Tretiak? There's probably countless little quirks that go into these deals that we never hear about but give the card companies headaches and that could factor in as well.
 
FrozenInferno said:
Let's also remember that a lot of these retired greats are probably more cost effective to include in products. Most of these guys rely on money from autograph signings to get by because they didn't make nearly as much money as players do today, and they sign a LOT. They can get these players to sign for a fraction of the price of a current star.

Take one look at a site like Frozen Pond for an example: A Bill Ranford signed 8x10 goes for $39. I'll use Ranford as an example because he was mentioned above. A few examples of recent stars, sticking with goalies just for comparison:

Johnathan Quick: $89
M.A Fleury: $75
Martin Brodeur: $125
Roberto Luongo: $125
Antti Niemi: $79

As these are retail prices you can assume that a card company would get a much lower price for bulk autographs, so let's take a guess and say that Ranford signs for around $5-$10 a signature, which is probably still being generous, while a guy like Brodeur might sign for around $45 or higher. If you're in charge of building an autograph set with a mix of players new and old of course you're going to include guys like Ranford if you can get them to sign. If the entire checklist was made up of superstars charging a fortune for signatures the product would be too expensive.

The secondary market may not be kind to some of these players and collectors who are after the latest and greatest may shake their head but guys like Ranford are not only worthy of some hobby love but also financially necessary to help balance out some of the rising costs of producing a set to keep us happy. We all want the big name signatures but we don't want to pay big name prices for packs so that's our alternative.

Other factors probably come into play like the players' willingness to sign a deal, how well he is accepted by the hobby, whether or not there is game-worn material available to use, how well he was treated by card companies in the past, etc. I know Dryden doesn't like people making money off his signature and he's also in politics so I guess he decides to handle himself a certain way so that's not the fault of the card companies.

All retired players have to have deals in place before a card company can use their image and signatures so it's probably a nightmare trying to wrangle in some of these guys to include in your sets when everybody wants things done a certain way or whatever. Remember a short time ago when Vladislav Tretiak ITG cards had an extra disclaimer on the back about the memorabilia not being guaranteed by Tretiak? There's probably countless little quirks that go into these deals that we never hear about but give the card companies headaches and that could factor in as well.
Click to expand...

Great response! Thank you.
 
I really think that card companies should try to get more retired players to sign, there are so many nice player who never got any card while players like Ranford, R.Brodeur, T.Linden, W.Clark etc is brutally overpresented (sorry!)...

Those players may be more willing to siging than many other but there many great player especially goalies during 80's and 90's which never got any nice cards despite theirs superior stats and some of those was actually stars/fan-favorites during its time but yet no hobby-love in nowadays.

Some players may be controversial like John Vanbiesbrouck because of his racical slur against a player for long time ago...but seriously he deserves a better fate, he's winnigest USA-born goalie ever (and among winnigest non canadian-born goalies ever), Vezina-vinner, very solid stats and big star during his time with the Panters....
Mike Richter...? He was huge in NYR and won the cup in 1994 plus a pure one-club-player, won World Cup in 1996 (playes as starting goalie for USA at many occasions) and named as MVP and famous for his stunning saves (especially aganist Bure in many occasion) etc...but mininal hobby-love in nowadays...

Maybe UD is unwilling to deal with retired non-canadian players?
There are so many nice USA-born players but those players has so much less then canada-born ones....

I'm unsure that many are collecting Richard Brodeur...I'm quite sure that many will get more exicted to pulling a nice card with players like Richter, Vanbiesbrouck, JR, Patty LaFontaine (Bure!? he may not be a american but he doesn't have so many nice cards after he retired despite to his stats/merits) etc they don't get any (or very few cards from UD-brands) but Joe Mullen got some really nice cards...? Strange....

I wasn't comparing Kirk McLean with Ranford at my first post, I was actually comparing Richard Brodeur with Kirk McLean, Captain Kirk got a superior stats and led in wins with a very impressive 39 wins during a season while R.Brodeur never got over +21 wins in a season!!!

Ok there are so many factors which we doesn't know when card companies selects players into their products....I'm quite stunned that my main PC-player doesn't get so much cards but from BTP-series with some execptions despite his merits (I'm FULL aware that he is considered as a jerk and has a repution as a no teamplayer but hey Hextall and Belfour are also thugs at ice and off-ice, maybe not Hexy but Eddie do! Patrick Roy is well known for his arrogance, cockiness and sometimes unfriendly like when he abused his wife but yet unlimited hobby-love but he's a french-canadian goalie so excuses everything, Felix Potvin is a bit overrated also, only got some great seasons at start of his career but also unlimited hobby-love, quebec-base goalies has tendency to be extremely overvalued, no ill intention of me, I really like Roy but he's too much sometimes)

It would be very nice if someone released a non ITG-branded series with only retired players, filled of autos/memorabilias/unlikely pairings etc....and not only focus at a very few retired players who may be very willing to signing cards....I know that's a impossilbe task but....

Sorry for my long post with bad english....and filled of nonsense.
 
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I do get the point you're trying to make.... and I will offer up a few more suggestions (really, stuff that's been touched on by other ppl already in this thread).

1. They've already invested in autos / memoribilia. Using Ranford (again) as an example, Upper Deck has had a paid of his goalie pads for over a decade, they've used at least three different Jerseys (Oilers, Bruins, 'Legends HOF Game') and maybe a 4th (from the first 'Heritage Classic played outdoors in Edmonton). They've also used a stick.

I would suspect that there is still a lot of memoribilia left over, and they're going to keep using it.

2. Willingness to sign. Some players, like Dryden, don't want to sign... at all. I will only speculate on guys like Richter and Vanbeisbrouck - but they were SPs in 11-12 BTP..... was that becuase ITG wanted to make their cards tougher to find, or becuase they were running low on autos to use?

3. Visibility of collections online. Quincy mentioned above that Bruce (former owner of HI) collects Richard Brodeur. I don't think it's that big of a stretch to think that there might be something to this..... but HI is one of the bigger & better forums out there, and the guy who was top dog here, for many years, collects Richard Brodeur. Even if UD isn't coming on here and posting on a regular basis, I would be willing to be that they (like all the other companies) are aware of what gets said on forums that have (at least) a decent amount of traffic. Do you think that that owner of a forum like this saying "Wow, great looking cards. Gotta get me some of those!" (or similar) is good for their business? Maybe it is, Maybe it isn't.... but if the company is looking to add another mediocre retired player to a set..... and you've got two guys that will cost them about the same.... why not add a player that may get you a little bit extra online promotion? It can't be a bad thing.

4. Familiarity. If Upper Deck consistantly gets back cards from Richard Brodeur on time.... he's easy to deal with..... never have problems with lost, late, or damaged cards..... and someone else that's comparible, would cost them just as much to get, has been notorious for being hard to deal with - I would suspect that they'd rather keep getting the guy they know and like to work with.



Just a few guesses. I could be out to lunch on this..... how checklists are made would be a very interesting topic to sit down and talk to someone from one of the three companies about.
 

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