Patch forger... caught! gomaz would be proud ;)

holygoalie said:
Can somebody tell me if the patches can not be glued into the card better by U.D. to stop forgeries of patch cards going forward? Why is this happening with Upper Deck patch cards and not (to my knowledge anyways) with ITG? Glue the patch in neatly and if some twit wants to try and alter it he'll destroy the card doing so. I'd like to be a fly on the wall for that misadventure into forgery, lol ;). -Mike :beer:
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Any glue can be melted.
 
gomaz said:
My goal is to have the indexing complete in time for the Toronto Fall Expo this year and to offer patch authentication on site.

How this will manifest, is still in planning however there will be a nominal fee involved.
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Cheers to you for doing this! I think that would be a great service to have in time for the Expo.
 
Keep in mind that ebay is not specifially designed to cater to the collecting world so they are doing their best to protect buyers/sellers of most of the goods moved on their site from spam generators. All the more reason for another forum in which to buy/sell/trade sports or trading cards that is exclusively built for the collectors and the safeguarding of their transactions - HI Marketplace anyone - I truely think that this will be another huge step forward in the overall confidence provided to card collectors. It will be easy to monitor transactions and notify parties that could be in jeopardy of scams - plus it could raise some loot for our fearless leader!
 
holygoalie said:
Can somebody tell me if the patches can not be glued into the card better by U.D. to stop forgeries of patch cards going forward? Why is this happening with Upper Deck patch cards and not (to my knowledge anyways) with ITG? Glue the patch in neatly and if some twit wants to try and alter it he'll destroy the card doing so. I'd like to be a fly on the wall for that misadventure into forgery, lol ;). -Mike :beer:
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Just my opinion but one of the major reasons that UD is targeted here is for money - I love ITG products as much as anyone but Cup pieces are where the money is and that is where the scammers are going to spend their time.
 
I honestly can't imagine that UpperDeck has any legal standing here whatsoever. They have every right to be pissed about it, for sure, but once they produce a card and it's sold, it isn't theirs anymore. If someone wants to take out the patch and put a nicer patch in, that's their business. When they SELL that card under false pretenses, THEN the authorites should get involved, that's another story altogether.

I realize that Ebay has a policy against giving out the usernames or info of the people who have bought the card, but has anyone asked Ebay to contact the buyers themselves? I'm sure someone has made Ebay aware that their site has hosted a counterfeit product....so if they fail to take any action, I would think they would be liable in a lawsuit. If it can be proven that Ebay knew an auction was transacted on their site for a counterfeit product (even if they couldn't reasonably be expected to know it until after the fact), and they took no action (including even contacting the person who bought the counterfeit product), they would have to be opening themselves up to a lawsuit, I would think.

I'm not a lawyer, but I know a few and I'm going to ask one of them, just to see what he says.

Dean
 
Laminate the cards. People who want to feel and smell swatches can rummage through their neighbours closet. You want to stop this? Laminate the cards. It seems that a lot of the faking occurs through the window and NOT by peeling the cards (good luck splitting a Cup card).
 
deanengemoen said:
I honestly can't imagine that UpperDeck has any legal standing here whatsoever. They have every right to be pissed about it, for sure, but once they produce a card and it's sold, it isn't theirs anymore. If someone wants to take out the patch and put a nicer patch in, that's their business. When they SELL that card under false pretenses, THEN the authorites should get involved, that's another story altogether.

I realize that Ebay has a policy against giving out the usernames or info of the people who have bought the card, but has anyone asked Ebay to contact the buyers themselves? I'm sure someone has made Ebay aware that their site has hosted a counterfeit product....so if they fail to take any action, I would think they would be liable in a lawsuit. If it can be proven that Ebay knew an auction was transacted on their site for a counterfeit product (even if they couldn't reasonably be expected to know it until after the fact), and they took no action (including even contacting the person who bought the counterfeit product), they would have to be opening themselves up to a lawsuit, I would think.

I'm not a lawyer, but I know a few and I'm going to ask one of them, just to see what he says.

Dean
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I am not a lawyer, but I think privacy trumps all of this.

-Michael
 
gomaz said:
Any glue can be melted.
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Yeah, but the heat required to release the bond on high end polyurethane glues, epoxy's, along with contact cements, would reduce the card around the patch to ash :). I use PL Premium and epoxy's all the time in my construction business and good luck getting those bonds apart using a 'little heat'. Use the right glue/cement/epoxy and those cards ain't coming apart, in my opinion anyways. :)

Actually Jeremy, would you happen to know if Upper Deck presently uses a type of adhesive to secure the patches at present? I have been meaning to ask Karvin but it keeps skipping my mind. -Mike :beer:
 
deanengemoen said:
I honestly can't imagine that UpperDeck has any legal standing here whatsoever. They have every right to be pissed about it, for sure, but once they produce a card and it's sold, it isn't theirs anymore. If someone wants to take out the patch and put a nicer patch in, that's their business. When they SELL that card under false pretenses, THEN the authorites should get involved, that's another story altogether.
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I'd disagree with this assessment (although this is not to be interpretted as legal advice in any manner, just my opinion). Upper Deck has a certificate on the back of the card authenticating the signature and patch. They're certificate is no longer valid. I think they do have legal standing as they're certificate is being used falsely by the forger. It is Upper Deck's reputation and name at stake. I think they have significant legal standing.

Greg
 
While I agree with Greg's opinion, it would seem that there's enough legal basis for controversy - and until it gets settled, the scammers slip in between the cracks. eBay's willingly turning a blind eye to it. And really, given their history of non-cooperation with the law at every turn - is that such a surprise?
 
holygoalie said:
Yeah, but the heat required to release the bond on high end polyurethane glues, epoxy's, along with contact cements, would reduce the card around the patch to ash :). I use PL Premium and epoxy's all the time in my construction business and good luck getting those bonds apart using a 'little heat'. Use the right glue/cement/epoxy and those cards ain't coming apart, in my opinion anyways. :)

Actually Jeremy, would you happen to know if Upper Deck presently uses a type of adhesive to secure the patches at present? I have been meaning to ask Karvin but it keeps skipping my mind. -Mike :beer:
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You are certainly the scientist that I'm not. :)

They do use an adhesive. I only know this because I've destroyed cards to see how they are constructed. I couldn't tell you what kind it is or give you any details.

I encourage you to open one up yourself and from there, put forth a solution based on your obvious expertise.
 
gomaz said:
You are certainly the scientist that I'm not. :)

They do use an adhesive. I only know this because I've destroyed cards to see how they are constructed. I couldn't tell you what kind it is or give you any details.

I encourage you to open one up yourself and from there, put forth a solution based on your obvious expertise.
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Lol, I actually had one sent to me by a white envelope Ebayer ;). Card was toast so I dissected it, in a manner of speaking, but there was no trace of any glues. Lower end card me thinks? As for putting forth a solution I believe I did but I will expand on it. Heavy duty epoxy. With the money already invested in the creation and construction of these higher end cards turn it up to 11 (Spinal Tap reference :)) and put the good stuff in there to keep the patches from being pulled out! If the forger tries they only succeed in pulling the back of their card through the front, lol. If that doesn't stop 'em I give a nod to Ryan's idea of laminating :D. -Mike :beer:
 
The laminating idea will not happen. Although you and Ryan are okay with it (as are others I'm sure), UD's perception is that most of the hobby is not. For the segment that likes covered patches, there is Ice. Count me among those that want to be able to touch the patch and have an unobstructed view of it and its layers. I also don't want there to be any reflection from the patch when I display my cards.

For the record, I have no desire to smell the patches. :D
 
OK I talked to my friend who is a lawyer (although this is NOT his area of expertise) and he said that his opinion was that the buyers were SOL unless the Ebay listing specifically mentions that it is an original card. By putting a scan or picture of the card in the listing, we are buying what we see. His answer was:

<<I suspect this is a case of what you see is what you get.>>

He may not be right (I hope he isn't), but he didn't really have much hope that there would be much done.

Dean
 
deanengemoen said:
OK I talked to my friend who is a lawyer (although this is NOT his area of expertise) and he said that his opinion was that the buyers were SOL unless the Ebay listing specifically mentions that it is an original card. By putting a scan or picture of the card in the listing, we are buying what we see. His answer was:

<<I suspect this is a case of what you see is what you get.>>

He may not be right (I hope he isn't), but he didn't really have much hope that there would be much done.

Dean
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Interesting analysis. Although I would raise again that the cards have a certificate of authenticity which is now incorrect. If someone were to take a certificate of authenticity they have for one item and sell another item using that certificate I believe there would be recourse. How is this any different. For example, if I have a game used jersey of Patrick Roy with a COA from the Montreal Canadiens, switch it with a Montreal jersey in my closet that is not GU'd and sell it with the Certificate, is the buyer out of luck. I would think not. Not trying to discredit the information above, just raising a counter-argument that I would like to hear some discussion on.

Greg
 
You may be right, and I mentioned the COA to him and he said that could change things, but his level of expertise in this area wasn't sufficient enough to make a definitive statement. Suffice it to say (and I guess this 27 page thread is evidence enough) that it is murky indeed.
 
meatmancgy said:
Now THIS is hilarious...

http://shop.ebay.com/mr_integrity_bruce_findlay/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=

Our patch forger apparently has decided to have a little fun... good thing I have his home and work address and several telephone numbers for him.
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OMG! You have got to be kidding me Bruce, lol. Now that is funny on one level. But on the other end of the spectrum it looks like a throw down aimed at you Bruce. What a set on this guy to pull that. What a set, lol. -Mike :beer:
 

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