Do you believe ITG's Game Worn legitimacy claim

[japhi]

Based on the amount of bad/fake memorabilia that hits the market + the fact that the card companies are not audited and have free reign = likely lots and lots of vintage cards with fake pieces. I mean I see these 8's pieces from ITG that have a sliver of a glove and there is no way to authenticate or even differentiate between the pieces. They all look the same. In some warehouse Leaf has a bunch of ziplock bags with old pieces of leather marked Moran, Morenz, etc. These pieces are sliced up and all provenance disappears.

So the question is really, do you trust the card companies to put integrity ahead of profit?

I don't, and that why I have real issues with the "vintage" market which IMO is ripe for fraud. I just don't trust the card companies to do what's right.

 

[holygoalie]

Based on the amount of bad/fake memorabilia that hits the market + the fact that the card companies are not audited and have free reign = likely lots and lots of vintage cards with fake pieces. I mean I see these 8's pieces from ITG that have a sliver of a glove and there is no way to authenticate or even differentiate between the pieces. They all look the same. In some warehouse Leaf has a bunch of ziplock bags with old pieces of leather marked Moran, Morenz, etc. These pieces are sliced up and all provenance disappears.

So the question is really, do you trust the card companies to put integrity ahead of profit?

I don't, and that why I have real issues with the "vintage" market which IMO is ripe for fraud. I just don't trust the card companies to do what's right.

There is a lot of paperwork to back up the memorabilia. I know the fellow who found Brian most of his older memorabilia and have actually seen some of the paperwork. I was actually blessed to slip on a game worn Crosby Pens jersey of ITG's prior to an Expo opening (sorry Brian but it was sooo freakn cool!) and was given its history in our discussion. The old ITG was VERY good about checking the history of their pieces. Did they 'Oops' it a couple times? Sure did. But I can attest to them trying to fix it when they were in business.

 

[japhi]

There is a lot of paperwork to back up the memorabilia. I know the fellow who found Brian most of his older memorabilia and have actually seen some of the paperwork. I was actually blessed to slip on a game worn Crosby Pens jersey of ITG's prior to an Expo opening (sorry Brian but it was sooo freakn cool!) and was given its history in our discussion. The old ITG was VERY good about checking the history of their pieces. Did they 'Oops' it a couple times? Sure did. But I can attest to them trying to fix it when they were in business.

Would love to see the paperwork, and how it was authenticated. I collect sports mem and the market is flooded with bad pieces, authenticated by bad actors. I would bet a lot of money that there of tons of slivers of GU in pouches with very little provenance to back it up.

I get that it's easy to authenticated a GU Crosby jersey, but a Paddy Moran pad or glove? Does Price buy the whole glove, or just pieces that are already bucked up? The card in your sig, was that piece from a whole Richard jersey that he purchased and if so there must be an auction trail on that one? Where did he buy that complete jersey?

Here is a Dryden stick that could have been used by Ken, or by my dad playing shinny in Montreal in 1972:

http://www.gamewornauctions.net/pro...Wood_Game_Used_Stick_Early_stick-2742-79.html

I actually don't believe that the companies are trying to deceive, but since they never have to prove provenance to collectors, I question how much they are willing to pay extra for pieces that have proven history - bought from a museum, the team, or the player - versus pieces that other collectors of complete mem shy away from. I mean if you are chopping that Dryden stick up into a million splinters, why pay 5000 for a photo matched stick when you can get one that may be real for 500 bucks.

That to me is the real issue with "vintage"; what is the incentive for the card companies to make sure they have the best stuff when the plan is to turn it into something barely recognizable from the original piece?

 

[LeafCeo]

I would like to contribute that we go to painstaking lengths to buy real Game used with solid provenance....

I just turned down a Howe Gamer at auction in the last month ($15k under what I paid for one 6 months ago)... The tagging was too new and even though it had a respected letter, I did not feel safe using the jersey..... And this would have saved me $15k!...
The money doesn't matter... The item is either good, or not good....

I can assure you we break the bank to buy the best... I just paid over $50k for a stunning 60's howe... I paid over $25k for a ridiculous doug Harvey sweater... I paid $10k plus for a tretiak mask..... AND IN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS, WE ANNOUNCE THE CRAZIEST THING EVER CUT UP FOR CARDS... INSANITY!...

While I understand some of the concerns with the disposition of certain ITG assets (which Leaf did NOT acquire), I can assure you the game used side of the business is easily the most tight part of the company as far as im concerned.

Brian Gray
LEAF CEO

 

[japhi]

I would like to contribute that we go to painstaking lengths to buy real Game used with solid provenance....

I just turned down a Howe Gamer at auction in the last month ($15k under what I paid for one 6 months ago)... The tagging was too new and even though it had a respected letter, I did not feel safe using the jersey..... And this would have saved me $15k!...
The money doesn't matter... The item is either good, or not good....

I can assure you we break the bank to buy the best... I just paid over $50k for a stunning 60's howe... I paid over $25k for a ridiculous doug Harvey sweater... I paid $10k plus for a tretiak mask..... AND IN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS, WE ANNOUNCE THE CRAZIEST THING EVER CUT UP FOR CARDS... INSANITY!...

While I understand some of the concerns with the disposition of certain ITG assets (which Leaf did NOT acquire), I can assure you the game used side of the business is easily the most tight part of the company as far as I'm concerned.

Brian Gray
LEAF CEO

Thanks for the response Brian, appreciate it. If a collector wants to know where his item came from, is Leaf willing/able to provide this information? Within reason of course, I'm talking high end pieces. For instance, if asked, would you be able to provide how you acquired all the pieces on this card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-ITG-Us...ito-Tretiak-/301703851454?hash=item463ef36dbe

I also think your post backs up my claim that a piece can have a great "letter" and still be fake. Good on you for passing on it but someone bought that jersey, maybe UD, and it may make it's way into cards in the next few years.

 

[webottew]

Thanks for the response Brian. If a collector wants to know where his item came from, is Leaf willing/able to provide this information? Within reason of course, I'm talking high end pieces. For instance, if asked, would you be able to provide how you acquired all the pieces on this card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-ITG-Us...ito-Tretiak-/301703851454?hash=item463ef36dbe

That is an EXCELLENT idea! If any company wants to dominate the GAME USED market, this would be a fantastic idea. Imagine a web page where you can search for the player/set and find info about the material. Even better, have a PIN representing a player or a card printed on the card itself. One PIN per card may be best to handle combination cards. Type the PIN into a website and it shows the players on the card, along with the provenance of the material.

 

[FrozenInferno]

I would like to contribute that we go to painstaking lengths to buy real Game used with solid provenance....

I just turned down a Howe Gamer at auction in the last month ($15k under what I paid for one 6 months ago)... The tagging was too new and even though it had a respected letter, I did not feel safe using the jersey..... And this would have saved me $15k!...
The money doesn't matter... The item is either good, or not good....

I can assure you we break the bank to buy the best... I just paid over $50k for a stunning 60's howe... I paid over $25k for a ridiculous doug Harvey sweater... I paid $10k plus for a tretiak mask..... AND IN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS, WE ANNOUNCE THE CRAZIEST THING EVER CUT UP FOR CARDS... INSANITY!...

While I understand some of the concerns with the disposition of certain ITG assets (which Leaf did NOT acquire), I can assure you the game used side of the business is easily the most tight part of the company as far as im concerned.

Brian Gray
LEAF CEO

Great post, and I'm curious to see what this insane piece is that you are announcing.

I have a question, how is the vintage supply holding up? Particularly the really old leather stuff from pads, skates, gloves, etc? For a long time ITG was using it very sparingly because it is mostly irreplaceable but with the last few products we've seen a huge amount of these cards made (especially ITGU, wow that was a lot of vintage). Once that stuff is gone it's gone, I'm curious to know what the long term plan is for it.

 

[99wgretzky99]

Thank you for coming on the boards to clear all that up, Brian. I have as much trust in Leaf as I did ITG. Brain Prices recent actions don't shock me at all, nor do I condone them but it's also expected imo.

I just feel bad that Leaf has to clean up ITG's lack of communication and weak departure from the hobby world.

 

[99goals]

I would like to contribute that we go to painstaking lengths to buy real Game used with solid provenance....

I just turned down a Howe Gamer at auction in the last month ($15k under what I paid for one 6 months ago)... The tagging was too new and even though it had a respected letter, I did not feel safe using the jersey..... And this would have saved me $15k!...
The money doesn't matter... The item is either good, or not good....

I can assure you we break the bank to buy the best... I just paid over $50k for a stunning 60's howe... I paid over $25k for a ridiculous doug Harvey sweater... I paid $10k plus for a tretiak mask..... AND IN THE NEXT TWO WEEKS, WE ANNOUNCE THE CRAZIEST THING EVER CUT UP FOR CARDS... INSANITY!...

While I understand some of the concerns with the disposition of certain ITG assets (which Leaf did NOT acquire), I can assure you the game used side of the business is easily the most tight part of the company as far as im concerned.

Brian Gray
LEAF CEO

Thank you for taking the time to post. We appreciate it.

 

[japhi]

If Brian or Gregg are around I'm interested in hearing the answer to my question in post #25.

 

[C55]

Thanks for the response Brian, appreciate it. If a collector wants to know where his item came from, is Leaf willing/able to provide this information? Within reason of course, I'm talking high end pieces. For instance, if asked, would you be able to provide how you acquired all the pieces on this card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-ITG-Us...ito-Tretiak-/301703851454?hash=item463ef36dbe

I also think your post backs up my claim that a piece can have a great "letter" and still be fake. Good on you for passing on it but someone bought that jersey, maybe UD, and it may make it's way into cards in the next few years.

Simplest solution is for the company to post significant memorabilia acquisitions on its blog, like Panini does for some of its stuff (eg Peyton Manning jersey, NBA player sneakers). This benefits both collectors (who can verify authenticity) and the company (in building hype).

 

[Triple B]

Brian and I became friends almost 10 years ago when he offered support for the Toronto Card Show when we first started it up. He offered us legitimacy when we had NONE.

I spent much time at ITG headquarters talking with Brian and I know a few others on these boards were treated to the same opportunity. Brian would light up talking hockey and especially showing me through his game used equipment, cut signatures and catalogued cut memorabilia. The one thing he followed up with each time I was treated to a new memorabilia piece was pages of provenance outlining the tracks of the jersey (or whatever piece of memorabilia he was showing me).

This wasn't one Gordie Howe jersey with a note from a flea market saying it was game used, this was a trail of letters from family members, the team or authentication groups and whomever else to which the jersey traded hands.

I have no doubt that ITG did their homework when purchasing game used equipment. Now, could some bad pieces have fallen through? Sure. Nothing is fool proof. However, I would say that this occurrence is few and VERY far between. Brian Price is no fool and he and his money are not soon to be parted.

 

[japhi]

Simplest solution is for the company to post significant memorabilia acquisitions on its blog, like Panini does for some of its stuff (eg Peyton Manning jersey, NBA player sneakers). This benefits both collectors (who can verify authenticity) and the company (in building hype).

Agreed, definitely not expecting them to be able to verify every swatch. But we should be able to find out - and they should know - where a Richard jersey came from, or a Morenz glove piece.

I hope Leaf responds as Brian was quick to respond to my original post / skepticism on provenance. The skeptic in me has a very hard time believing that those 8 pieces of leather that very similar are from the actual players in all cases. I would like to see Leaf provide some insight into how they catalog and track their GU inventory. Maybe a video of them picking pieces for use in cards.

Until I see a company demonstrate that GU pieces - particularly vintage - are tracked and stored with records on acquisition I will assume that lots of pieces across all companies are not what they are supposed to be.

 

[sprague11]

Ive personally witness Brian turn down shirts from reputable dealers with loa's that he didnt feel 100% about if that counts for anything.

 

[3rdlinewinger]

Gray or Price?

 

[LeafGregg]

Thanks for the response Brian, appreciate it. If a collector wants to know where his item came from, is Leaf willing/able to provide this information? Within reason of course, I'm talking high end pieces. For instance, if asked, would you be able to provide how you acquired all the pieces on this card:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2015-ITG-Us...ito-Tretiak-/301703851454?hash=item463ef36dbe

I also think your post backs up my claim that a piece can have a great "letter" and still be fake. Good on you for passing on it but someone bought that jersey, maybe UD, and it may make it's way into cards in the next few years.

The pieces used on this card were all part of the purchase of ITG and it's vast memorabilia inventory.

 

[japhi]

The pieces used on this card were all part of the purchase of ITG and it's vast memorabilia inventory.

Hi Gregg - I appreciate you participating but that doesn't answer my question on how vintage items are tracked, stored and cataloged.

Bottom line for me is this: do you pull these pieces out of a ziplock bag that says "Moran, glove" or is there a more sophisticated system of ensuring that pieces are what you (or ITG in this case) say they are?

 

[LeafCeo]

Great post, and I'm curious to see what this insane piece is that you are announcing.

I have a question, how is the vintage supply holding up? Particularly the really old leather stuff from pads, skates, gloves, etc? For a long time ITG was using it very sparingly because it is mostly irreplaceable but with the last few products we've seen a huge amount of these cards made (especially ITGU, wow that was a lot of vintage). Once that stuff is gone it's gone, I'm curious to know what the long term plan is for it.

I can tell you that the vintage market is VERY dry... There is a very real chance we will have a dry spell of some period as we await more items to surface in the market.

I can assure you, we will be creative to find new ways to feature players given any limitations that pop up... Brian

 

[LeafCeo]

Hi Gregg - I appreciate you participating but that doesn't answer my question on how vintage items are tracked, stored and cataloged.

Bottom line for me is this: do you pull these pieces out of a ziplock bag that says "Moran, glove" or is there a more sophisticated system of ensuring that pieces are what you (or ITG in this case) say they are?

We adopted ITG's system. Each memorabilia item is kept in a unique and isolated serialized location. We do not mix pieces within our system.

A Roy Avs jersey and Roy Montreal Jersey are never mixed...

We are very confident that this system keeps the process clean and accurate.
BG

 

[sprague11]

Gray or Price?

Dr. Price. Some nice pieces too. Doesn't excuse the other thread but I've known him to meticulously go over gamers before even considering them.

As for sticks, I think every company has been burned with them. There's far more variable in a stick. What if player x broke his stick and used one from player y for a few minutes? Some players try out sticks for only a game and go back to their usual brand. Not saying it happens all the time but it happens.