MGiuseffi1969
Upstanding Member,
100% lock
Is Joe Thornton a Hall of Famer?
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hockeyguy2006
Verified Trader,
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No doubt.
CKcardtrader
New Member, Must Send First!
Cups should never matter. Its a team sport. One Hart or Ross equals 3 cups
Leafsfan1967
Disgruntled Leafs Fan,
100% a no brainer!
frankiefives
Verified Trader,
I think he's not only a lock but a first ballot
timber09
www.lumberjackcards.com,
Yup - it would have to be a heck of a class to keep him out.
cburt
Remembered Member,
Still lacks the Cup, but I'd say he's a shoe-in. One of the best and most consistent guy's of the past twenty years.
TheGriceBoys
King of Kings, Verified Trader,
So based on your logic Wayne Gretzky has the equivalent of 57 Stanley Cups just off of those two trophies? Get out.
I'd say a Cup is a LOT tougher to win than an individual trophy. I think you have it backwards, a Cup should be equal to 3 of the individual awards.
cburt
Remembered Member,
I agree. I have always said that it's having championships that separate the good from the great, the stars from the superstars. When you look at all major professional sports, the guy's that are remembered as being the greatest in their respective sports are those with championships. Sure many of the superstars who win Cups also have other accolades - records, awards, etc. also. I always thought one of the greatest examples was in the NFL in the 80's, when you compare say Dan Marino to Joe Montana. Marino had many of the records, awards, etc., but he could never win the big one. Hardly anyone mentions or thinks of his name when discussions of the "greatest" come up. It's almost like Marino's been forgotten. You see it in all sports. Look at basketball - i.e. Jordan vs. guy's like Karl Malone, John Stockton, Charles Barkley, etc. Sure Thorton is a very good player, sure he will probably get into the HOF, but unless you can win the Cup, he will forever find himself separated from those like Crosby, Yzerman, Lemieux, Gretzky, to name a few. Even guy's like Kane and Toews are solidifying their legacies by having won the big one several times.
pathshot
Verified Trader,
Wayne Gretzky actually does have 57 Stanley Cups. His named has been etched on it every year since before he was conceived.
The only issue I take with that is how many players weren't significant contributors who win Cups. If you really wanted to put together a formula for this, Cups won should be a 1.2-1.8x modifier to individual trophies or statistical achievements in helping their odds of getting into the Hall. Multiple Cups and a Hart Trophy? Your ticket is punched.
Whoop
Verified Trader,
This.
Cups are important but not important for individual success or at least for entry into the Hall of Fame. By that logic guys like Kris Draper, Niklas Hjalmarsson are Hall of Famers by virtue of having multiple Stanley Cups.
Now if you are the leader of a Cup winning team that's a different matter because odds are if you are a leading player on a Stanley Cup winning team you've won some individual awards or have been an All-Star.
If you want a better debate along those lines, is Anze Kopitar a Hall of Famer? (Barrie, that's not a shot at you or your guy.) I think in today's climate he's close. But his numbers are good but not great, hasn't won any individual awards, hasn't had success internationally due to being Slovenian but he has two Cups.
Bossy22
Verified Trader,
So you think Mark Cullen has a better chance of making the Hall of fame than Ovechkin? Got out!
I think there is a balance, Cujo never won a cup but was in my mind a HOF goalie, just usually played on bad teams.
newfiecomicguy1
Transactions, Hockey & Comic Book Moderator, April
I think winning a stanley cup helps but certainly won't keep stars out. Some of the guys who sneaked in over the past few years wouldn't get in without the cups. Obviously Ovy is a HOF lock but people look at him differently because he hasn't won one. It follows them around there is always an elephant in the room with those guys. Jumbo Joe had a great career and will get in, however with a cup there wouldn't be questions or doubt he would be a lock.
scooby1970
Purveyor of Lush,
HOCKEY HALL OF FAME........... is not only NHL its all of hockey.. Winning a cup means nothing , ask pavel bure , mats sundin adam oates, etc
Alexander ovechkin has won just about 0 ( zero ) championships either on the capitals or team Russia, but he will definetly be a first ballot hall of fame even without a cup. same goes for joe thornton
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cburt
Remembered Member,
If they were actually asked (and they probably have been at some point) they would admit a Cup win would mean something very significant to their legacies, not "nothing." I think in the HOF you have obviously two groups - the guy's with Cups and the guy's without Cups. Nobody is saying you need a Cup to get into the Hall. However, having one separates significantly the stars and superstars that have them and those who do not have them - separates them in terms of their greatness.
TheGriceBoys
King of Kings, Verified Trader,
You're always trying to goad me but I'll bite on this because it's easy:
Let's just say the player needs to be on a ballot to get voted in.
I don't think Matt (not Mark!) Cullen will be on a HHOF ballot or at least not with anyone legitimately considering him.
No offense to his mum and dad and you.
Anyway.............too bad Jumbo lost his likely best shot at a Cup but he will still get in sans that trophy.
scooby1970
Purveyor of Lush,
Yeah I worded that wrong, Its every guys dream that plays in the nhl to win the Stanley cup but you don't need a cup win to get in the hall
look at borje salming.... he never won a cup but I guarantee you he carved the way for all swedes and Europeans to play in the nhl
true that cup winners outweigh the non cup winners that are in the hall but that shouldn't be a deciding factor to get in the hall
Triple B
Verified Trader,
Absolutely.
Not to turn the attention of the thread, but the same thing goes for Eric Lindros. He didn't win a Cup but he lit it up on an International level. That's the HOCKEY Hall of Fame, not the "NHL Hall of Fame".
Not to turn the attention of the thread, but the same thing goes for Eric Lindros. He didn't win a Cup but he lit it up on an International level. That's the HOCKEY Hall of Fame, not the "NHL Hall of Fame".
yzerberg
Verified Trader,
i don't like him, but yea he will be in the Hall.
newfiecomicguy1
Transactions, Hockey & Comic Book Moderator, April
The HOF is for all hockey but most every male player that goes in played in the NHL. There are exceptions but the bulk of the players are former NHL superstars. They can call it what they want but the NHL has the biggest influence on who goes in there. Salming, Bure, Sundin and many others had great international success but they all had fantastic NHL careers. Lindros will go in soon. When comparing two similar players with only one spot left cups will mater, it isn't a deal breaker but it certainly helps.
I agree that it is the Hockey HOF not NHL and I love international hockey. However most players that are in that didn't play in the NHL are all older guys that played before the NHL was open to those players. This is an argument I have seen for 20 years. Maybe they need different categories to make sure the other international leagues get represented. It is based in North America thus such a strong NHL amount of players from the so called worlds best league.
I agree that it is the Hockey HOF not NHL and I love international hockey. However most players that are in that didn't play in the NHL are all older guys that played before the NHL was open to those players. This is an argument I have seen for 20 years. Maybe they need different categories to make sure the other international leagues get represented. It is based in North America thus such a strong NHL amount of players from the so called worlds best league.
