Leaf Exclusive Nico Hischier
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LeafGregg
Leaf Trading Cards
These signings will not hurt UD in the slightest?
Not having the #1 and #2 picks signing for SPA, The Cup, Premier, Ultimate, any Exquisite cards, Black and OPC Chrome won't hurt?? No MCJesus or Matthews to fall back on.
Not having the #1 and #2 picks signing for SPA, The Cup, Premier, Ultimate, any Exquisite cards, Black and OPC Chrome won't hurt?? No MCJesus or Matthews to fall back on.
FrozenInferno
Resident Bluenoser, Verified Trader,
I also agree with most of Snobles points quoted above.
Collectors are upset, but it's not at UD. They're upset at Leaf. For the first time ever an unlicensed underdog is essentially stealing NHL licensed rookie autos from collectors and it's obviously being met with backlash.
I know you want collectors to revolt against UD to end exclusives but the reality is the hobby masses would rather UD have the big rookies locked up. UD signing guys like McDavid and Matthews guaranteed there would be NHL licensed rookie autos of those two superstars and that's what the average collector wanted. Very few people are going to get mad at UD for that. Most will applaud it.
They will however get mad at Leaf when another top prospect is locked up and the hobby is deprived of licensed NHL rookie autos. It's just the way it is. No exclusives would obviously be ideal but the hobby in general is going to side with the licensed company every time because licensed rookies (autos in particular) are king.
You may see it as a tactic to remain competitive but I would say the average collector sees it as Leaf holding another prospect hostage. If anything, UD is going to push even harder signing exclusives going forward and the hobby at large will support keeping top rookies under the NHL license umbrella.
I don't doubt for a minute that you have the best intentions in mind, but I'm sorry I just don't see this strategy doing anything other than generating more resentment towards Leaf.
I know you are pushing for a fair fight to compete with UD but the fact remains they are licensed and you are not, so by nature it will never be a fair fight. To expect them to give up their position of power and meet you half way is a lofty expectation. You need a license of your own to truly compete on a level playing field and I don't believe continuously attacking the NHLPA's established partner in this manner is the way to go about it. You catch more flies with honey as they say, and if that doesn't work aggression rarely makes the difference. I always hoped ITG would get a license back and when Leaf first took over I felt the same but sadly at this point I just don't think it's ever going to happen.
The passion is absolutely there but the execution is (in my opinion anyway) only digging a deeper hole for Leaf and I doubt you will see the desired effect. I as a collector firmly disagree with the way Leaf is going about this situation.
I will give you this though, you and Gregg are troopers for coming on the forum to discuss this with us and open an ear to our feedback, good and bad. I've written novels like the one above to air grievances with UD in the past also but I've sure as hell never gotten a response. Taking the time to listen does not go overlooked.
Collectors are upset, but it's not at UD. They're upset at Leaf. For the first time ever an unlicensed underdog is essentially stealing NHL licensed rookie autos from collectors and it's obviously being met with backlash.
I know you want collectors to revolt against UD to end exclusives but the reality is the hobby masses would rather UD have the big rookies locked up. UD signing guys like McDavid and Matthews guaranteed there would be NHL licensed rookie autos of those two superstars and that's what the average collector wanted. Very few people are going to get mad at UD for that. Most will applaud it.
They will however get mad at Leaf when another top prospect is locked up and the hobby is deprived of licensed NHL rookie autos. It's just the way it is. No exclusives would obviously be ideal but the hobby in general is going to side with the licensed company every time because licensed rookies (autos in particular) are king.
You may see it as a tactic to remain competitive but I would say the average collector sees it as Leaf holding another prospect hostage. If anything, UD is going to push even harder signing exclusives going forward and the hobby at large will support keeping top rookies under the NHL license umbrella.
I don't doubt for a minute that you have the best intentions in mind, but I'm sorry I just don't see this strategy doing anything other than generating more resentment towards Leaf.
I know you are pushing for a fair fight to compete with UD but the fact remains they are licensed and you are not, so by nature it will never be a fair fight. To expect them to give up their position of power and meet you half way is a lofty expectation. You need a license of your own to truly compete on a level playing field and I don't believe continuously attacking the NHLPA's established partner in this manner is the way to go about it. You catch more flies with honey as they say, and if that doesn't work aggression rarely makes the difference. I always hoped ITG would get a license back and when Leaf first took over I felt the same but sadly at this point I just don't think it's ever going to happen.
The passion is absolutely there but the execution is (in my opinion anyway) only digging a deeper hole for Leaf and I doubt you will see the desired effect. I as a collector firmly disagree with the way Leaf is going about this situation.
I will give you this though, you and Gregg are troopers for coming on the forum to discuss this with us and open an ear to our feedback, good and bad. I've written novels like the one above to air grievances with UD in the past also but I've sure as hell never gotten a response. Taking the time to listen does not go overlooked.
LeafGregg
Leaf Trading Cards
Very long post for this early hour!! The one thing that strikes me as misguided is when you said "stealing" NHL licensed rookies. Nothing could be further from the truth. We made an offer the player and his representatives found more appealing than Upper Decks offer. Upper Deck was given a chance to make an offer for his signatures. We were not afforded the chance to bid on a license for NHL or NHLPA. Leaf was not afforded the chance to make McDavid an offer....So, who exactly, is doing the stealing?
thorn
Registered Trader,
Wasn't Brian Price making overstock cards and backdooring them and ruined the reputation of ITG, that isn't caring about the collector. :whew:
Leaf is making a good job so that is a valid point.
k_northrup
Verified Trader,
So your ultimate goal is to hurt UD, your not working for the collectors in any means, the Young Guns will sell better than any of the auto's Leaf puts out, we all know that, and that's what most of us look forward to, the Young Guns.
penfield
Verified Trader!
It's kinda like guys that try and guess popular domain names and sell them to the company that wants it really bad (EXTREMELY) loose analogy which is why I say kinda. I have a very hard time believing Leaf that they didn't sign Marner or Laine for the good of the hobby. Either you couldn't, or decided it wouldn't be worth it and just another Eichel who cares backfire, since the popularity of Matthews would be enough to keep people still buying UD, just like with McD.
I have absolutely nothing against Leaf - in fact kudos for being here in the front lines with collectors. I genuinely just don't think UD cares! They adapt to your strategy and make pretty cards like the redesigned Black Diamond rookies - no auto? No problem! They also still have the YG to rely on. They also likely know that this coming year is going to already have a meh rookie crop, so just beef up products with Crosby, Gretzky, Orr, McDavid and Matthews.
If Leaf got a licence - then your exclusive game might work! (And a real nhlpa licence - not 'licenced by Mr Eichel himself') The way I see it, UD has a few years left, and Topps will be making licenced cards very soon!!! Have you seen the cards in their Skate app??? Something tells me they are not investing all this time and money into photography for no reason!
LeafGregg
Leaf Trading Cards
It is obvious you aren't a fan of Leaf. That's fine. We are not in this to hurt UD, but help Leaf. Period. Was UD trying to hurt Leaf by signing Patrick Roy, Mathews or McDavid? Maybe you shouldn't speak for all collectors.
LeafGregg
Leaf Trading Cards
I was at UD for 10 years, trust me they care. Have they ever not had the 1 and 2 picks? Can't compare this year to any of the past few. No McDavid or Mathews to fall back on. Also, when has UD ever beefed up content when a rookie crop is weak? Not their model to do that.
Topps may or may not get a license, however, UD isn't going away in a few years.
FrozenInferno
Resident Bluenoser, Verified Trader,
Short term it hurts UD, long term the hobby as a whole suffers. These players will never have the cards you mentioned above and that leaves a MASSIVE hole in the hobby. Future generations will come looking for these players if they have good careers and they won't find the staple licensed autos they are after.
Many will settle for the Leaf autos but is that really a good thing? Having to settle for the Leaf card because there is no licensed alternative? People like to use the old Joe Montana Topps rookie card as an argument that licensing shouldn't matter but when there is no other licensed alternative it's a completely different situation, cards like that only win by default because nothing else exists. If Montana had a FWA, Cup RC, or even a Young Gun back in the day nobody would look twice at the Topps card. Not saying it's right or wrong to look at it that way but for better or worse it's the reality of how the hockey market functions.
And I know Leaf is aware of the value that comes with licensed rookies because they are used in a big way to sell the Leaf repack products. I reckon some McDavid and Matthews UD rookie autos will be used in future releases also
I've been up since 4:10 AM for work and it's quiet in here, so I've had some extra time to type out my thoughts haha.
We (the online community) are generally "in the know" and we've heard the Leaf side of the story when it comes to how these exclusives came to be quite a bit over the past year, but the general collecting public doesn't know and likely will never know any of these behind the scenes details. An outsider just wanting to pull NHL rookie cards is going to be upset that Leaf is locking up these players. As these threads show even those of us who DO know the situation still don't like what is going on here.
Like I said to Mr. Gray above, I'm appreciative that my lowly opinion is at least being heard and responded to. Even if it's not necessarily what you guys want to hear
LeafGregg
Leaf Trading Cards
Short term it hurts UD, long term the hobby as a whole suffers. These players will never have the cards you mentioned above and that leaves a MASSIVE hole in the hobby. Future generations will come looking for these players if they have good careers and they won't find the staple licensed autos they are after.
Many will settle for the Leaf autos but is that really a good thing? Having to settle for the Leaf card because there is no licensed alternative? People like to use the old Joe Montana Topps rookie card as an argument that licensing shouldn't matter but when there is no other licensed alternative it's a completely different situation, cards like that only win by default because nothing else exists. If Montana had a FWA, Cup RC, or even a Young Gun back in the day nobody would look twice at the Topps card. Not saying it's right or wrong to look at it that way but for better or worse it's the reality of how the hockey market functions.
And I know Leaf is aware of the value that comes with licensed rookies because they are used in a big way to sell the Leaf repack products. I reckon some McDavid and Matthews UD rookie autos will be used in future releases also
I've been up since 4:10 AM for work and it's quiet in here, so I've had some extra time to type out my thoughts haha.
We (the online community) are generally "in the know" and we've heard the Leaf side of the story when it comes to how these exclusives came to be quite a bit over the past year, but the general collecting public doesn't know and likely will never know any of these behind the scenes details. An outsider just wanting to pull NHL rookie cards is going to be upset that Leaf is locking up these players. As these threads show even those of us who DO know the situation still don't like what is going on here.
Like I said to Mr. Gray above, I'm appreciative that my lowly opinion is at least being heard and responded to. Even if it's not necessarily what you guys want to hear
We love to hear all sides of view and I think you speak what you truly feel. I can't argue with that. I just don't buy into the argument that UD can do what they please because they have a license and we should just be happy to exist, Leaf is growing like it or not and will be around as long as their is a hobby. The athletes are seeing something in Leaf they want to be a part of and it isn't always about money. We will do our very best to make compelling cards of both Patrick and Nico.
JoexBondo
Verified Trader
My last box of Leaf had a Howe 1/1, fedorov /12, Modano /12, and a leafs stick Rack 4 /25, while my last SPA box had an auto of Tolchinsky and a 15-16 Auto of Martin Biron. I'm glad Leaf is in this game as an alternative and I hope they continue to grow. Just please don't be like upper deck and water the product Down to minimum possible value. I know when I get a box of Leaf I may not get a 1/1 or a superstar (although I've gotten many). I at least know I'm going to get something nice for my $100-125. I mean, let's be honest name an UD product with guaranteed value. Not even UD 1 anymore since the prices have gone so high the last two years.....
penfield
Verified Trader!
Yeah I don't expect UD will go away if Topps joins in, but it is the required competition that is needed. While there were many things I wasn't a fan of with Panini, it was very clear that UD stepped up their game! Expo redemptions were amazing too from both companies - now UD gives you some midnight cards and MAYBE an auto. The second Panini left I immediately noticed the value of a box suffered! I'm digressing here - my point is that I am not pro UD - they just happen to make the cards I want for my PC.
Just to restate, I doubt any of this will work unless you do it with an nhlpa licence.
LeafGregg
Leaf Trading Cards
Leaf will never let the signing of athletes come at the expense of making high quality products with the best bang for the buck! Never!
penfield
Verified Trader!
Kinda like the Jack Eichel collection? Aren't these the cards people were peeling the stickers off of and putting them on UD cards??? The cards are so compelling that people just can't contain the excitement that they destroy the card.
LeafGregg
Leaf Trading Cards
Thanks for the constructive post, do you have evidence of this occurring? Please forward to us.
Yes, we will make compelling cards of both players. You won't be compelled to purchase. No worries. Enjoy your weekend, maybe you have a UDRAK coming now
FrozenInferno
Resident Bluenoser, Verified Trader,
Comes down to picking your battles I guess. I was a very big ITG supporter and they also did what they could to compete without the license. They made some great cards, listened to collectors, served their niche markets exceptionally well, and generally didn't step on any toes along the way. Leaf does a great job with most of those things but with one obvious difference: the exclusive auto deals and a generally much more aggressive way of dealing with the competition. It's a bold and risky strategy that seems to be making more enemies than friends at present, both with your competition and the collectors who are upset about losing NHL autos of these players. If there is a positive ending to this whole thing I don't see it on the horizon yet.
oasis
Verified Trader
I have collected since 1968 . Topps was it for the first 13 years for me. Never asked for competition but it came. I remember the early eighties in baseball with fleer and donruss gimmicks of error cards and variations (juan Eichelberger) , even sp's (the san diego Chicken). Didnt faze me I stayed the course , set Building. Then came UD and I said whoa.. The photography was stellar, the card designs new and exciting. I was sold. I began collecting UD based on what I saw and liked. Then came GU and autos and more errors, parallels, variations Gimmicks as I like to call them. Collectors changed from Set builders to chasing hits and ebay arrived allowing global marketing and then breaking/flipping started and it seemed the hobby became more of a GAMBLING den. Thru it all this collector stayed focused on building the sets I find to be visually stunning. I have collected all manufacturers of all sports and non sports for the better part of the last 50 years based on what I wanted. If I didnt like anything I didnt buy anything. In my humble opinion, it is not exclusive auto deals that makes me choose what to buy, in fact autos and such are far down the list. "Hits" are behind photography, design, licenses, price point, set building difficulty, availability, and perceived future value at the least. Im not saying I dont like autos or relics, what I am saying is it is not as important as you think to a certain segment of the hobby.
I am not praising or siding with you on exclusives, i just fail to see the point or path you chose to take. If you think for one second that inserting exclusive autos of Eichel , Patrick etc in your product makes them more "appealing" than your competitions products, then you have totally missed the boat in my eyes and probably many other hobbyists too.
Some of your products have an appeal to me, especially those with vintage relics featuring players that have reached the pinnacle of their sport, although i do get tired of the same old images used. Others like your entertainment releases also have appeal for their diversity and content. Lord knows i have spent enough money on these releases year after year. BUT not once did i buy either because it was the only place I could get an eichel auto . Never factored into my decision .
So spend your money wisely. Invest in new "images" of the old players, acquire new licenses of old retired greats, maybe some relics of HOFers who have never had a product issued, that would enhance your tried and true releases that "sell out" year after year, Stickworks, ultimate etc. You did a nice job with cut autos in the past, how about some more of those inserted into those staple brands. I think a better business directive for you is to enhance and enrich those releases that we collectors know and love. It would mean far more to us than you wasting you money trying to be the proverbial Don Quixote jousting with the Licensed windmills.
I am not praising or siding with you on exclusives, i just fail to see the point or path you chose to take. If you think for one second that inserting exclusive autos of Eichel , Patrick etc in your product makes them more "appealing" than your competitions products, then you have totally missed the boat in my eyes and probably many other hobbyists too.
Some of your products have an appeal to me, especially those with vintage relics featuring players that have reached the pinnacle of their sport, although i do get tired of the same old images used. Others like your entertainment releases also have appeal for their diversity and content. Lord knows i have spent enough money on these releases year after year. BUT not once did i buy either because it was the only place I could get an eichel auto . Never factored into my decision .
So spend your money wisely. Invest in new "images" of the old players, acquire new licenses of old retired greats, maybe some relics of HOFers who have never had a product issued, that would enhance your tried and true releases that "sell out" year after year, Stickworks, ultimate etc. You did a nice job with cut autos in the past, how about some more of those inserted into those staple brands. I think a better business directive for you is to enhance and enrich those releases that we collectors know and love. It would mean far more to us than you wasting you money trying to be the proverbial Don Quixote jousting with the Licensed windmills.
lucscaps
Verified Trader,
All I'm going to say is that I do not want a card showing the Devils top pick in altered jersey. I'm a Devils fan. I want to collect the Devils new player and I want him in a Devils sweater.
All this vintage stuff you put out can have these blanked out jersey's or whatever because by player collectors will snatch them up and those guys are out of the game and odds are have travelled to different teams.
Look at the sample size on the show and tell posts, I can't remember the last time I've seen anyone say hey I picked up this sweet eichel auto card showing this blurred out Sabres jersey. I have seen people say look at this sweet vintage piece.
I guess though now the Devils will be relevant to Leaf?
I could care less about an exlusive, all I want to see is the Devils logo on the card of the players I like to watch on my favorite team.
Not one of my fellow Devils fan has said ....... sweet, this is going to be awesome...... it's all been the complete opposite.
All this vintage stuff you put out can have these blanked out jersey's or whatever because by player collectors will snatch them up and those guys are out of the game and odds are have travelled to different teams.
Look at the sample size on the show and tell posts, I can't remember the last time I've seen anyone say hey I picked up this sweet eichel auto card showing this blurred out Sabres jersey. I have seen people say look at this sweet vintage piece.
I guess though now the Devils will be relevant to Leaf?
I could care less about an exlusive, all I want to see is the Devils logo on the card of the players I like to watch on my favorite team.
Not one of my fellow Devils fan has said ....... sweet, this is going to be awesome...... it's all been the complete opposite.
TheGriceBoys
King of Kings, Verified Trader,
I agree with this. UD has really dropped off the map. they only reply on THEIR social media page where they can delete comments and/or spin the feedback in a favorable and slanted fashion for them. They basically ran and hid under a rock when I called them, yet again, on more fraudulent material in their cards. Smart (shady) business I guess. Ha!
Kudos to Leaf for being available and corresponding. Brian has been gracious enough to return my personal emails when I have questions.
I skimmed since my last post and my brain hurts just looking how much has been said since that post. Wow.
I appreciate all the keyboard warriors and people passionate about the hobby but my gosh when it gets this heated over what is supposed to FUN and a HOBBY, this is a perfect example of the BS I am talking about.
What happened to those days when I was shredding box after box of 1993-94 Leaf to build a master set? (What a GORGEOUS set mind you with the city skylines on the card back and some beautiful foil accents on thick, high gloss stock!)
The local card shop was thriving and everyone was in good spirits and the card shows were every Wednesday night and Saturday day? What an awesome set that was and SO much fun my senior year of high school. Ahhhhh, memories.
