Leaf Exclusive Nico Hischier

I guess my POV is a little different from most, and especially that of other Eichel collectors on here, probably because although I'm not a hockey collector on a year-by-year basis. What I mean by that is I always picked up NY Rangers cards as I saw fit, getting ones that grabbed my eye, regardless of what year or what set it was from.

I have patch & auto cards ranging from a lowly Brian Mullen Parkhurst auto, up to a Genuine Letters "S" patch from a Phil Esposito Rangers jersey. Don't care much for who made it, UD or Panini, rookie card or not, I get what I dig. But then I started PC'ing Jack Eichel, and it was the first time I had to pay close attention to the products that were being released, and I saw first hand how rabid hockey collectors can be. And man, I am amazed at the how addicted (in a good way, mostly) a lot of them are. I personally was disappointed that I couldn't get a FWA or RPA of Eichel, but you know what, my wallet was most certainly thanking me for it.

And while I don't like non-licensed stuff, Leaf did release the only auto card of Eichel in a BU uniform, and it's still one of the nicest cards of his that I own. They also just released an auto of his (sticker, sadly) of him in a Team USA uniform, and I'll definitely pick one of those up as well, as there is no airbrushing going on there. UD will almost certainly NEVER release a Team USA card for him.

And while I'm sorry that Patrick/Hischier fans won't be able to get a UD auto of his, for those that are set collectors, I don't get the hate... it's not like you're not getting a card that exists to finish your set (FWA, Cup RPA's what have you), or an unfulfilled redemption. These cards simply won't exist, so I don't understand the angst at having gaps in one's collection. I don't get it, but I do understand it has meaning to lots of you.

Either way, neither of these companies have shown much of a propensity of caring for their customers (although Leaf at least responds on other boards directly to their customer base), and lord knows every company out there does stuff that collector's hate, so why should this be any different. Here's a company that actually WANTS to try to give collectors an option, and because they have no license, they're somehow this evil entity screwing people, while UD (and Panini & Topps in other sports) get a pass just because the logos aren't airbrushed? I dunno, just seems like the more Leaf does stuff like this, the more UD is thankful for taking the heat off them for all the other ridiculous stuff they pull.

I'll also add that, after a year of throwing good money at Eichel patch cards from UD that have the 8th layer of jerseys he wore at a measly photo shoot (insert Mark Ingram pic here), I'd much rather spend $30 on a Team USA sticker auto (or even a patch auto from a USA jersey, which Leaf has also done). I'm so over photo shoot "player-worn" crap at this point.

(pardon the cut n paste from BO)
 
Amen.. I agree we need more hard signed content where possible..


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And here's hoping the rubber meets the road when it comes to your 2 new guys... if the year passes, and the same point geschrocks33 about stickers & Eichel can be made about Patrick/Hischier, then we'll really know where you stand about truly giving collectors what they want.
 
And here's hoping the rubber meets the road when it comes to your 2 new guys... if the year passes, and the same point geschrocks33 about stickers & Eichel can be made about Patrick/Hischier, then we'll really know where you stand about truly giving collectors what they want.

With the players being exclusives, there shouldn't be any sticker autos from them. No exceptions. The workload for them signing cards is significantly reduced with exclusives. If you have an exclusive athlete and can not produce on card signatures for your products in time, the product should be postponed or take thecard out of the release. No excuses.
 
Amen.. I agree we need more hard signed content where possible..


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With the players being exclusives, there shouldn't be any sticker autos from them. No exceptions. The workload for them signing cards is significantly reduced with exclusives. If you have an exclusive athlete and can not produce on card signatures for your products in time, the product should be postponed or take thecard out of the release. No excuses.

In a perfect world, I totally agree with you, stickers stink, but I do understand at least why they exist. That being said, I hadn't even realized how little on-card content was available for Eichel. I have the Superlative, but without an interest in Q or Trinity (I'm a Yankee fan, damned if I get a "Red Sox" card of his!), I do have a couple of his stickers. Plus with the private signing, I do have on-card autos on his BU team card and an UD draft caps booklet.

That's why we can hold BG to his word this time around... he just said he wants more on-card content, so if we roll around to next year, and the same limited ones exist for these guys as Eichel, we can really call him on BS'ing us on this one.
 
With the players being exclusives, there shouldn't be any sticker autos from them. No exceptions. The workload for them signing cards is significantly reduced with exclusives. If you have an exclusive athlete and can not produce on card signatures for your products in time, the product should be postponed or take thecard out of the release. No excuses.

If this was the case we'd still be waiting for SPA and Matthews signing.....just saying
 
So are exclusives the death of this hobby? or the NHL card Market?

I look at baseball where Topps has sole reign yet panini is still pumping out good products that are sought after (National Treasures, Flawless, Immaculate). Why it is that these two seem to get along where both have products that are extremely well selling. Now I am not up to date with MLB exclusives and what it entails, but I know that Topps has certain exclusives where they are the only ones allowed to put out certain HOF autos. Do you think baseball not having a sole exclusive provider for rookie autos is what is keeping this market striving? Bowman chrome is by far king of rookie cards in the baseball realm and I dont think any will disagree. Yet Panini has elite and contenders which has most of the same rookie autos that are in the bowman products (just with college unis). But rookies aside, both have autos of all of the major players Trout, Bryant, Kershaw, Pujols, Machado, Cabrera etc. Bryce Harper is the last I can think of to sign an exclusive and that was back in 2010 for topps.

It just seems like topps and panini have found a common ground when it comes to baseball cards.
 
So are exclusives the death of this hobby? or the NHL card Market?

I look at baseball where Topps has sole reign yet panini is still pumping out good products that are sought after (National Treasures, Flawless, Immaculate). Why it is that these two seem to get along where both have products that are extremely well selling. Now I am not up to date with MLB exclusives and what it entails, but I know that Topps has certain exclusives where they are the only ones allowed to put out certain HOF autos. Do you think baseball not having a sole exclusive provider for rookie autos is what is keeping this market striving? Bowman chrome is by far king of rookie cards in the baseball realm and I dont think any will disagree. Yet Panini has elite and contenders which has most of the same rookie autos that are in the bowman products (just with college unis). But rookies aside, both have autos of all of the major players Trout, Bryant, Kershaw, Pujols, Machado, Cabrera etc. Bryce Harper is the last I can think of to sign an exclusive and that was back in 2010 for topps.

It just seems like topps and panini have found a common ground when it comes to baseball cards.

Baseball is easier to share as the pie is massive. Hockey is super small.
 
correct me if im wrong but in baseball, panini has a licence from the mlbpa but not mlb, so they have acces to every player currently in mlbpa , only kris bryant just signed an exclusive with topps and i think derek jeter has one too. so its easier for panini to make products cause the only thing they cnat put is the logo and the team name on the card
 
If this was the case we'd still be waiting for SPA and Matthews signing.....just saying

UD doesn't care about on card autos or redemptions.
Leaf has said they want on card autos and hates redemptions, then use them.
Leaf produces a lot less than UD as well, this is why UD uses stickers more often than not.
If you say you dislike redemptions and care about the customer, keep the card out of the product if it isn't ready. No excuses.
 
And here's hoping the rubber meets the road when it comes to your 2 new guys... if the year passes, and the same point geschrocks33 about stickers & Eichel can be made about Patrick/Hischier, then we'll really know where you stand about truly giving collectors what they want.



Make no mistake, there will be some sticker content and some on card, but the number of stickers that were used on Eichel was too many in my opinion versus on card...

Please remember, these guys are not always available in season to sign on card... stickers are a necessary evil..

They just shouldn't unnecessarily become a crutch...

Brian


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I always thought of myself as a hardcore (although lower budget) collector. Thinking back I haven't broke more than 3 boxes in the last couple of years. I use to do that in a month. I think ud has truly watered down the product so it is either homerun or eat my shorts. I have tried to do some leaf but each time I have made it to a store they are out :( Hope Leaf can change the landscape with these signings. At the worst, hope it makes ud put out a better product. I'm all for the signing! Great job leaf!!!

This is exactly me. I love the thrill of opening packs and boxes but i have a really hard time justifying the thrill when i pay 100-150 and get 10-20 dollars worth of stuff. I'd love to open ITG Used but any local store that i can find it at has it for almost double what i can get it for online.
 
Wow, the top 2 picks with no UD autos. Maybe it is time for them to share the license, this will deff hurt the advertising/profits

I don't think anyone will care this year. Neither one of those guys will have anywhere near the interest a Matthews or McDavid had. I wouldn't expect 17/18 hockey products to be lucrative for any company regardless of who's signing their cards.
 
In a head to head battle, Leaf wouldn't dominate anything against UD.

To me the companies that have an exclusive but don't make the best cards that they could are Topps and Panini.

UD is the one company that innovates in a vacuum. And they're the one company that has stopped the escalation of cards getting rarer and rarer in order to be collectible.

Look at Topps, their best rookie card in the last ten years is the 2011 Mike Trout Topps Update that goes for around $150. It has a low print run and is not part of any factory set. It has a similar magnitude print run compared to Young Guns. Then look at Connor McDavid, Auston Matthews all the way to Sidney Crosby in hockey. The Young Guns that are worth $100+ is like a dozen different players.

This is because UD has kept the license and keeps making the cards in the same fashion for the last decade and it extends to other true RCs: /999 SPA FWA, the /99 Ice Premiers, Cup RPAs and Ultimate RC. When there was competition in the 90s, there were products that had RCs in the single digits (like in Titanium) which completely boxed out 99.999% of the collectors from owning one.

It's true that UD is a big company and doesn't go on message boards to talk to you but that's because they're doing their jobs; they innovate even in a vacuum of competition.

So my reaction is this: I will boycott all Leaf products and encourage others to do the same, including my LCS (from year to year I have bought a lot of Leaf non-hockey product). If Leaf wants to first land a NHL license and then sign players to exclusives, then that's fine because they can make their own cards with the player in NHL uniform. They way they are doing this now, whatever their reason, only hurts us collectors. So as a collector I will retaliate in kind.
The ends don't justify the means.

In the meantime all this will do is give UD a legitimate reason to sell even more high margin, low cost Young Guns. The Young Guns sub-brand motivates collectors to buy more UD base brand than all of Leaf products combined. Now UD, who will look like victims in this case to the majority of casual hockey collectors, maybe can make yet another RC that doesn't need an auto on it (like they did with Ice Premiers.).

I wonder how the NHL feels about this incident...

Every one of the true rookie's that you listed has gone down a lot over the last 5 or 6 years. It used to be that when you pulled a FWA /999 even the scrubs went for 5-10 dollars consistently even weeks after release. Now you can pick up some of them for $2 plus shipping and it just released a week ago. Plus 3 of these products have short printed SP elite level rookies at only 99 copies and that has prices them out of the market for plenty of collectors just like titanium did. UD has also copied the titanium idea with SP Game Used (which all of the rookies, including jerseys /399, and the new banners arent even game used) and with exquisite.

The Ice /99 rookies used to be worth ridiculous money even for the lesser players that got them. Now they barely cover the cost of one box. I just saw a Viktor Stalberg Ice Rookie /99 sell for .99 USD last week.
 
I figured I'd pipe in with a few facts, just in case anyone even cares about the facts:

1> I approached Jason Masherah (President of UD), Mike Phillips (VP Hobby Sales) and Chris Carlin (you know Chris) in Hawaii last year. I told them I was done signing exclusives if they would stop. Despite their continued contention that I am out of line for doing exclusives and they are not, I steadfastly stayed the course...

IF YOU DON'T DO ANY MORE EXCLUSIVES, WE WONT EITHER AND COLLECTORS WILL WIN.

2> Upper Deck immediately proceeded to sign Auston Matthews. We did not sign anyone, despite our gut instinct to sign Laine and Marner, we did not sign anyone. We tried to stay the course... NO EXCLUSIVES!

3> Then, Upper Deck signs PATRICK ROY exclusive. This is the same Patrick Roy that has been a key figure in "In the Game" products since day one. Still, Leaf has not signed ANY EXCLUSIVES....

4> Upper Deck went after our CHL license. We had an opportunity to match, but we do not have long term confidence in that category, so we let it go....

THIS IS UD GOING AFTER THREE EXCLUSIVE DEALS, WHILE WE WAITED A FULL YEAR AND DIDNT SIGN A SINGLE EXCLUSIVE DEAL (Nolan Patrick was already locked up right around the time of Eichel, just in case you are thinking we did sign Patrick)...

We did "the right thing" and sat on the sideline and tried to have a non exclusive atmosphere... During the last 24 months, I have reached out to Upper Deck at least 10 times... I have offered a sit down to stop the madness.

Upper Deck does not care and will not care until the consumer makes them care.

They have much bigger issues at the moment. $97 million in unpaid taxes (which an article released based on court documents yesterday actually estimate could really be $160 million or more)....

I still believe UD will eventually realize that this is not helping the consumer and will sit down....

But, make no mistake, NOTHING WILL CHANGE UNLESS IT IS FORCED TO CHANGE.

I am confident and certain that the exclusives HAVE TO STOP. I am ready and willing to sit down right now. Heck, I would offer to have the meeting in front of a ballroom full of collectors at the Fall Expo (lol)....

I don't expect everyone to like this..... BUT, competition will pay off long term for all collectors whether you buy UD, Leaf or Both.... regardless, Leaf pushing UD to do and be better is a positive thing! (and for that matter, UD pushing us makes us better also!!!)...

Hopefully, this makes some sense.... I never hide on stuff like this.

Brian Gray
CEO, Leaf

P.S.- I am happy to answer any questions you may have in this thread as well, since I'm here.... (and we encourage our competition to join the forum and answer your questions candidly and honestly as well....)

Mr President,

It seems you're only signing these exclusives to keep them away from Upper Deck. It appears like you put no effort into the design of attractiveness of your product. Come on man, sticker autos? They've been out of date for 15 years.
So long as you're going to be the only one producing cards of Eichel, Hischer, etc. why don't you at least do a proper job of it?

We're easy to please here
1. on card auto
2. "event" worn patch (have the player put on a jersey while they're signing the cards
3. rookie cards serial numbered to /99 for the top product.
 
I was at UD for 10 years, trust me they care. Have they ever not had the 1 and 2 picks? Can't compare this year to any of the past few. No McDavid or Mathews to fall back on. Also, when has UD ever beefed up content when a rookie crop is weak? Not their model to do that.


Topps may or may not get a license, however, UD isn't going away in a few years.

ya man, not having the first 2 picks is going to be like an NHL lockout year. Nobody is going to be buying UD product.
 
Every one of the true rookie's that you listed has gone down a lot over the last 5 or 6 years. It used to be that when you pulled a FWA /999 even the scrubs went for 5-10 dollars consistently even weeks after release. Now you can pick up some of them for $2 plus shipping and it just released a week ago.


It works both ways.

The "big names" from those early years of SPA like Kovalchuk, Spezza, Nash, Zetterberg never saw the heights that Mcdavid/Crosby/Matthews SPA FWA /999 saw.

The FWAP patches of Rick Nash and Jason Spezza were very early on in the tenure and I remember them getting $300-400.

The big guys now, EASILY triple that.

There is a much greater band now between the highest of highs and lows.
 
You miss the point... if they have choices they are MOST happy...

It's like asking a starving person if he would rather his sweater be blue or green.

Yes, it's a legit question, but not the most important question


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I must say it is getting old when I am constantly told what I am posting is wrong or not the most important question.

Would I like to have a choice? Yes. I loved when multiple companies had a license to produce hockey cards. Panini cards are some of my favorites from recent years and Pacific made some amazing cards back in the 2000's.

I am not a UD supporter by any means and I do not agree with their exclusives either. However, they are not coming on here (good or bad) and telling me they did it for me. They did it for themselves and their business.

I give you full marks for doing something to better your business but it has not and is not helping the collector. You speak of people having a choice, you have taken that away from so many collectors who wanted NHL/NHLPA licensed autographed cards of your exclusive signers. Yes, UD did the same with their exclusive signers but (at least at this time) they are the only ones that can have the team names and logos on them.

Further to your point about trying to end exclusives and reaching out to UD via email, why would they even consider responding to you when you are willing to post these emails on the open forum like this?

I would love to see the NHLPA go back to multiple licensed companies but until that happens, exclusives autograph players for non-licensed companies will never help the collectors, the shop owners trying to sell products or the hobby in general in my opinion.
 
It works both ways.

The "big names" from those early years of SPA like Kovalchuk, Spezza, Nash, Zetterberg never saw the heights that Mcdavid/Crosby/Matthews SPA FWA /999 saw.

The FWAP patches of Rick Nash and Jason Spezza were very early on in the tenure and I remember them getting $300-400.

The big guys now, EASILY triple that.

There is a much greater band now between the highest of highs and lows.

I do agree, however, the 05-06 year saw a huge jump in collectors due to the Crosby and friends double rookie class and some people having gone through the withdrawal of the lockout. More "collectors" chasing the same amount of cards drove prices unseen by the Nash/Spezza era. At that point as well Ebay was still a smaller share of the market and Beckett was setting top prices which imo brings prices down. A lot of the people i've dealt with recently still quote beckett like its the bible. They won't pay over full bv even when its routinely selling above that on ebay and comc.

I think i'm starting to veer away from the point though. Exclusives are bad open it up to any manufacturer that wants to produce cards.
 
ya man, not having the first 2 picks is going to be like an NHL lockout year. Nobody is going to be buying UD product.

They still have the first two picks, just not AU's.

Bottom line, Upper Deck YG values of those two players will likely still outshine anything that Leaf will put out, especially if there is a sticker AU.

Sales of Series 1 and 2 will likely do well, but sales of SP Authentic in particular will take a massive hit, unless we have a surprise rookie next year, a la Panarin or Larkin.
 

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