Toronto Expo, UD Series I box prices...Opinions

[malsk]

I have heard back from 5 dealers so far saying the same thing. Slow and attendance was also down. Although a few said they were blowing out UD1 below cost at the end of the show ($840 a case).

Yes it was a lot slower then the past.

UD1 started at $105 a box, went to $90 a box by Saturday, and by Sunday $80 per box.

 

[malsk]

3) My only negative comment - Most of the prices I saw (or asked about) were very high, in many cases outrageously so. I know these are often just a starting point for negotiation, but in several cases they were so out there that it didn't seem worthwhile countering. I don't expect Ebay or below-Ebay pricing on everything at a show, but it certainly turned me off from some possible high-end purchases.

Couldn't agree more. I believe some just want to show off their collections and then complain when it is a bad show.

People are too smart and savvy now adays. Everyone knows ebay prices. I set my prices accordingly and move cards...

 

[odjickfan]

Yes it was a lot slower then the past.

UD1 started at $105 a box, went to $90 a box by Saturday, and by Sunday $80 per box.

With the weaker rookie crop, that's a fair price in my opinion. I remember, in 13-14, with the dual rookie class and live YGs of Galchenyuk, MacKinnon and Yakupov, we were paying 90$ per box and it was expensive at the time. Earlier than that, I remember UD at 75ish

 

[guy_hobby]

With the weaker rookie crop, that's a fair price in my opinion. I remember, in 13-14, with the dual rookie class and live YGs of Galchenyuk, MacKinnon and Yakupov, we were paying 90$ per box and it was expensive at the time. Earlier than that, I remember UD at 75ish

Do you remember the days when you could get UD1 for $65 or $70 at the show and be able to break for a chance at the UD booth for "good" autos (ie Gretzky, Crosby, Orr, hot rookie etc)? That wasn't long ago... but those were the good times.

Oh and these were also the times before mass group breaking, authorized internet retailers and a UD distribution policy.

 

[malsk]

Do you remember the days when you could get UD1 for $65 or $70 at the show and be able to break for a chance at the UD booth for "good" autos (ie Gretzky, Crosby, Orr, hot rookie etc)? That wasn't long ago... but those were the good times.

Oh and these were also the times before mass group breaking, authorized internet retailers and a UD distribution policy.

Honestly the UD redemption program has went for a massive you know what.

Case break giveaways where a joke! Not only that anything that was left extra went to all the UD dealers that do group case breaks...brutal.

For box breaks they went from a priority signing per box to midnight garbage with a priority signing one per every 3 packs to this year I opened two cases and got one in every six packs...again brutal!

In a down year like this they should have went the opposite way and had better giveaways but nope not UD.

 

[THSN]

With the weaker rookie crop, that's a fair price in my opinion. I remember, in 13-14, with the dual rookie class and live YGs of Galchenyuk, MacKinnon and Yakupov, we were paying 90$ per box and it was expensive at the time. Earlier than that, I remember UD at 75ish

It's not much of a fair price if you're paying $700-$1,000 to set up and sell and your cost is $85 tax in as a dealer. When it got to $85, I just put mine away.

Thought so too. :dislike:

On Friday we didn't have any of the cards and didn't know everyone was supposed to have them. I just assumed maybe only the big wax guys got them, and I was wayyyyyy at the other end of the Expo from the UD booth. When I got up to go get a coffee, I stopped and asked and they gave us a stack.

The adults doing the sets, I found that to be a little like 18-year-olds trick-or-treating, but when I ran out I was able to get more so I don't know if there was a limited number of the giveaway cards or not. And hell, they ARE neat.

I like being able to give cards away, especially to kids, but the number of adults who would walk up while I was in the middle of a transaction or conversation and just butt in, "HEY, WHERE ARE YOU BECKETT CARDS?" Unbelievable.

I thought the show had some a good mix of things - but agree that prices were too high to even begin countering. McDavid PSA 10 Young Guns for $650-750 Canadian? They sell for $500ish. I quickly divide what dealers to even say hi to based on their sticker (museum) prices. They don't want to sell - just want to show

I think there could be a couple parts to this. The first would be exactly what you said - people just kind of showing off their stuff. Two of my customers split a booth and while I never asked about pricing, part of it for them was just showing off what they had.

I also think as the Expo begins to morph into more of a fan experience/autograph show, maybe some dealers are realizing they can sell cards at a higher price to people who aren't specifically card people in the same way people will pay high prices on Amazon because they don't know any better. Not advocating it, but a possibility.

Honestly the UD redemption program has went for a massive you know what.

Case break giveaways where a joke! Not only that anything that was left extra went to all the UD dealers that do group case breaks...brutal.

For box breaks they went from a priority signing per box to midnight garbage with a priority signing one per every 3 packs to this year I opened two cases and got one in every six packs...again brutal!

In a down year like this they should have went the opposite way and had better giveaways but nope not UD.

So, you were able to buy wax at a lower-than-normal price even though you were getting free stuff you couldn't get anywhere else - and that sucks?

I was discussing this with another dealer Saturday night. If you broke a case of Series I (and likely paid damned near dealer cost on it and saved $100-$200 over an LCS), here's likely what you got from the 12 packs (24 cards) added by the redemption program:

15 Midnight parallels /25 x $4 = $60
9 Victory RCs x $3 = $27
3 Priority Signings x $10 = $30

That's $117 worth of free stuff, and that's if you didn't hit anything exciting. I agree, the redemption program isn't what it used to be. What is? But complaining about not getting enough free stuff when you're already getting a break on the price?

As someone who has gone to quite a few expos in a row now, most of the deals I did at the show were setup ahead of time. I met with 5 people who all had cards for me. Basically it saves us both some hassle from not needing to ship.

This is actually part of why I stopped taking so many booths. All of my inventory is online, and I found about half of my sales were people who could just pick up what they wanted from me without having all the display set up. Heck, for a big enough purchase I'll run it down to Toronto myself whenever!

Having said that, I did find all of the dealers I stopped and talked with were in a very good mood and more than willing to help out if they could. I even had one dealer give me an OPC uncut box bottom, I then spent 10 minutes looking for something to buy from him but I couldn't find anything.

You tried, brother, and God bless you for it.

 

[malsk]

So, you were able to buy wax at a lower-than-normal price even though you were getting free stuff you couldn't get anywhere else - and that sucks?

I was discussing this with another dealer Saturday night. If you broke a case of Series I (and likely paid damned near dealer cost on it and saved $100-$200 over an LCS), here's likely what you got from the 12 packs (24 cards) added by the redemption program:

15 Midnight parallels /25 x $4 = $60
9 Victory RCs x $3 = $27
3 Priority Signings x $10 = $30

That's $117 worth of free stuff, and that's if you didn't hit anything exciting. I agree, the redemption program isn't what it used to be. What is? But complaining about not getting enough free stuff when you're already getting a break on the price?

You are complaining UD is under priced and put yours away when it went under $85 as per your post above.

When it got to $85, I just put mine away.

For the last decade or so UD was about $15-$20 more then the LCS at the expo. People could only get the priority signings at the expo and only if they bought a box from a certified dealer. Expo goers had no problem paying more as they got value for the extra $15-$20.

Fast forward to the last year and people no longer see the value so they are not paying above LCS prices. Prices drop hard.

Truth be told you should not be bashing me but rather UD. If you as a seller of wax forced them to have a better redemption program you would get higher margins on your wax and not have to put it under the table, correct?

UD also sent care packages of the left over stuff to group breakers that weren't even set up at the show. As a wax seller, at the expo yourself how do you feel about that? Again who should you really be calling out?

 

[piper1]

If dealers had to drop to $80 a box despite the redemptions that should send a clear message to both Upper Deck and the Distributors. There should be some great deals on the 17/18 products for the upcoming Black Friday.

 

[malsk]

THSN here is another thing to think about...

It sounds like you are a LCS owner.

Can you imagine if UD really cared about you as a dealer and made the program better?

For instance...Put UD Midnight Young Guns in the packs. Number them to even 50. Cost UD nothing extra and adds HUGE value. I would have busted 10 cases instead of 2. You as a expo dealer would be happy as your product is selling above what you would get at your shop and not having to put it under the table at the expo.

They did this 10 years ago in the Crosby year. The only product you could open was UD All World garbage. Dealers love it because you moved crappy product. I would have never opened it in my life but I did 4 cases. Cost UD next to nothing to number a card out of 10 at the time. Everyone wins by just adding a little extra value...

Again instead of bashing me look at the other side and see what UD could have done for you as an owner to help drive business.

 

[THSN]

You are complaining UD is under priced and put yours away when it went under $85 as per your post above. For the last decade or so UD was about $15-$20 more then the LCS at the expo.

Would you share who your LCS is? Because if he's been selling it at less than $90 tax in per box, I'd sure like to buy where he's buying, considering cost is $75 or $76 plus tax.

Truth be told you should not be bashing me but rather UD. If you as a seller of wax forced them to have a better redemption program you would get higher margins on your wax and not have to put it under the table, correct?

UD also sent care packages of the left over stuff to group breakers that weren't even set up at the show. As a wax seller, at the expo yourself how do you feel about that? Again who should you really be calling out?

You can ask the people here who know me - I have no issue with calling out Upper Deck when I feel they deserve it. I just don't think it's on them here.

As for care packages, I think most dealers got something from UD on Sunday to give their customers at home. Do I like it going to the group breakers? No, I don't, but I understand it.

Can you imagine if UD really cared about you as a dealer and made the program better?

For instance...Put UD Midnight Young Guns in the packs. Number them to even 50. Cost UD nothing extra and adds HUGE value. I would have busted 10 cases instead of 2. You as a expo dealer would be happy as your product is selling above what you would get at your shop and not having to put it under the table at the expo.

They did this 10 years ago in the Crosby year. The only product you could open was UD All World garbage. Dealers love it because you moved crappy product. I would have never opened it in my life but I did 4 cases. Cost UD next to nothing to number a card out of 10 at the time. Everyone wins by just adding a little extra value...

Again instead of bashing me look at the other side and see what UD could have done for you as an owner to help drive business.

I don't think UD spending tens of thousands of dollars to come to the Expo and give stuff away means they don't care about me as a dealer. I'd say the fact they do a redemption program at all does, especially given the incredible amount of grief they get for giving away a ton of stuff.

Sure, it'd be great if they did the Midnight YGs. And if they added them, then people would whine they weren't autographs. If they went back to more autographs, people would complain they weren't numbered low enough. Where does it end?

If UD really wanted to help me, they would find the people who slashed the price of Series I and Centennial on the first day of the show and cut them off as sellers for a few months. Do I expect them to do that? No.

 

[THSN]

For reference, 17-18 Series I prices in CDN funds per box as found online at 1:48PM today:

Clouts N' Chara - $94.99 plus tax
Red Nails II - $89.99 plus tax
Miraj Trading - $94.99 plus tax
Wayne's Sports Cards (Edmonton) - $99.95 plus tax
Maple Leaf Sports - $104 (not sure taxes included or not)
Your local LCS in Windsor - $79.99 plus tax or less

Which of these things is not like the other?

 

[99goals]

For reference, 17-18 Series I prices in CDN funds per box as found online at 1:48PM today:

Clouts N' Chara - $94.99 plus tax
Red Nails II - $89.99 plus tax
Miraj Trading - $94.99 plus tax
Wayne's Sports Cards (Edmonton) - $99.95 plus tax
Maple Leaf Sports - $104 (not sure taxes included or not)
Your local LCS in Windsor - $79.99 plus tax or less

Which of these things is not like the other?

This is my guess. Do I get a timbit?

 

[THSN]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heplT2tB4Q8

 

[malsk]

For reference, 17-18 Series I prices in CDN funds per box as found online at 1:48PM today:

Clouts N' Chara - $94.99 plus tax
Red Nails II - $89.99 plus tax
Miraj Trading - $94.99 plus tax
Wayne's Sports Cards (Edmonton) - $99.95 plus tax
Maple Leaf Sports - $104 (not sure taxes included or not)
Your local LCS in Windsor - $79.99 plus tax or less

Which of these things is not like the other?

You can't be serious? You must know about preordering? Yes 100% $90 a box all in. I never said in Windsor. I guess not in Innisfil either lol.

 

[THSN]

You can't be serious? You must know about preordering? Yes 100% $90 a box all in. I never said in Windsor. I guess not in Innisfil either lol.

Oh, I'm totally serious. I'd like you to find me another card shop in Canada which would sell you boxes of Series I this year on preorder for $90 taxes in (so in Ontario, that's $79.64 plus 13%). That's a profit of $4.64 a box, or a margin of around 6%. I'm not even counting the shipping.

I also find it strange you don't name the LCS. Why is that?

 

[malsk]

Oh, I'm totally serious. I'd like you to find me another card shop in Canada which would sell you boxes of Series I this year on preorder for $90 taxes in (so in Ontario, that's $79.64 plus 13%). That's a profit of $4.64 a box, or a margin of around 6%. I'm not even counting the shipping.

I also find it strange you don't name the LCS. Why is that?

Honestly this is going nowhere...

I keep my business private but I will say this Clouts and Chara where $90 at the show. We all agree people went lower. I have no idea why you are finding this so hard to believe.

 

[g-force]

As somebody who has attended the Expo for the past 7 years, the undercutting has always been started by one seller, Imperial Garden. Every year they are selling at pretty much cost within 2 hours of the show opening and this year was no different. Unfortunately, the distributors and UD choose not to do anything despite it being a recurring theme every year show that I've been in attendance. It makes it difficult on the dealers in attendance at the show. Either keep the product at normal price and don't make any sales or match and don't make any profit.

 

[THSN]

We're not talking about the show. We're talking about you saying you were and/or are able to purchase this year's Series I for $90 taxes included. Hell, I was $90 at the Expo until people went even lower and I gave up.

There is only one way I can figure someone could give you those prices for a preorder - they are bringing it across the border and not paying the taxes. Selling wax for a 6% margin is not a sustainable business model, preorder or not, unless you are also buying packs of toploaders from this LCS for $10 each or paying a $50 cover to get in the place.

And you keep your business private? Dude, you're talking about hockey cards, not heroin. If you can't tell us where you're buying product from a legit LCS for that price, well, that's not very nice to the rest of the collectors here, is it? I mean, every other store in Canada is clearly ripping the suckers on HI off, right?

 

[THSN]

As somebody who has attended the Expo for the past 7 years, the undercutting has always been started by one seller, Imperial Garden. Every year they are selling at pretty much cost within 2 hours of the show opening and this year was no different. Unfortunately, the distributors and UD choose not to do anything despite it being a recurring theme every year show that I've been in attendance. It makes it difficult on the dealers in attendance at the show. Either keep the product at normal price and don't make any sales or match and don't make any profit.

I heard there was a kerfuffel up front, but seeing how I was wayyyyyyy at the other end of the room, I don't really know what happened.

I assume it's one of two reasons, though:

1) Vendor orders ridiculous numbers of Series I and II to bump up what they get for The Cup and other high-end stuff, then dumps the cheaper product.
2) Vendor has the stuff on consignment from a distributor and just returns what they don't sell at the end of the show.

I can't verify either of those. Just a guess.

 

[malsk]

We're not talking about the show. We're talking about you saying you were and/or are able to purchase this year's Series I for $90 taxes included. Hell, I was $90 at the Expo until people went even lower and I gave up.

There is only one way I can figure someone could give you those prices for a preorder - they are bringing it across the border and not paying the taxes. Selling wax for a 6% margin is not a sustainable business model, preorder or not, unless you are also buying packs of toploaders from this LCS for $10 each or paying a $50 cover to get in the place.

And you keep your business private? Dude, you're talking about hockey cards, not heroin. If you can't tell us where you're buying product from a legit LCS for that price, well, that's not very nice to the rest of the collectors here, is it? I mean, every other store in Canada is clearly ripping the suckers on HI off, right?

Dude as you say....again going no where...won't be baited. Everyone knows UD wants there product sold for a certain price. Will never disclose so you can run to UD. No offence.

If you want to continue this PM me. Nothing worse then message board bickering.