Call to Upper Deck - Not a Happy Camper..

[Meth68]

Come on Chris, do you really thing UD cares if you or I are upset? They proved all last year that for every 10 customers they loose 100 more jump in clueless.

I think its simple how to get to equal, you contact the customer and hammer something out. Will it take a long time yes, but don't forget you have people waiting 18 months for a $15 redemption they have the patience to resolve an issue. It's not like redemptions are handouts, people pay for them for specific reasons. There is no way you will satisfy them by just sending them random stuff. Sure some will love getting their 3rd and 4th Ovechkin black diamond, but there are some that could care less for that card. This is going to be painful, annoying as well as a bunch of other things but the point here is UD put themselves here (just like how they are shooting their selves in the foot yet again with AO black diamond rookies. They can continue to deny it but look around they are ruining an unnumbered short print rookie card. All that is doing is putting doubt in any card they now produce that isn't numbered), we already gave them our money, how about giving us the benefit of the doubt and working with the customers on this rather then picking 10 people to work with and then slinging random stuff at the rest? I know it won't be easy, no one will say it's going to be smooth either. It's good to see they finally see what many collectors have been telling them for 3-4 years, their redemption process is horrible (yes Mr. Fallon I said horrible and not the best in the business). UD is not a small company, they have the money and resources to fix this, we will find out over the next 30 days if they choose to fix the issue or slap a band aid on it like all their other issues.

I am not stomping my feet saying I want $400 for my jussi jokinen cup redemption card because what if it was a sick multi color patch, I am just saying that if your forcing your customer to replace something they purchased from you make sure they are satisfied before you do anything. It will only cause more headaches just sending out random stuff you have rotting on a shelf.

Another point that cant be overlooked because of the recent ovechkin/kolzig fiasco last week. I want to 100% certain the card will never show up, if there is a tiny chance it will, well keep my redemption pending then.

 

[quincy]

Vince, I find myself feeling like a broken record when I say this: You cannot judge anything by last year. The 05-06 season was a fluke, if comparable to anything at all to the 90-91 season. The pool of interested consumers is simply so vast that it dwarfs any potential downturn effect of poor company performance.

This year will be extremely telling.

 

[will-411]

Guys, good points all around, and I'm with Q on this one. UD has finally decided to own up to the mess that has been created, and is trying to start with a clean slate. I also think that when all is said and done, they're going to lose customers as Vinny says and they've accepted that. I also think Vin that that's going to hurt them more than you expect, but that's just my opinion. I'm also aprehensive about how this whole thing will shake out, but I'll reserve final judgement until after the flurry hits.

I am somewhat worried about the process that is going to follow this starting over period. Based on the Beckett Q&A with Joe Fallon, they redemption process doesn't have flaws. They seem to think that relying on the athlete to fulfill their commitments is sufficient when history has proven that incorrect. I'd like to see UD build an inventory of labels, autos, etc in house and build checklists and insertion ratios based on what they have on hand, instead of basing them on speculation of what MIGHT be returned.

Cory

 

[Triple B]

I also give UD credit for owning up to the mess they've created, but the solution isn't a fix. They're sending out unredeemed cards from the e-volve line as well as sending out cards that, by all accounts, should have been destroyed ages ago.

People are getting replacement cards from different years that likely should have been packed out or destroyed as they have said in countless interviews. So, never mind that your Ovechkin Black Diamond RC is showing up more frequently (although, I'm still naive enough to believe that the Ovechkin stack is 1% or more held back from packout), but what about these cards that are now seeing the light of day that are years old?

In all honestly, I would LOVE UD to come out and say "guys, we pooched the whole redemption thing. We got ourselves into a rut that we are having a hard time getting out of. We'll try our best to send out replacements, and we'll try to be as consistent as possible." That would be impressive. What this now creates is complete dissatisfaction from people who spent big bucks on some of these redemptions that will be getting an e-volve Patrick Roy auto. Try and sell it or trade it...sure, you'll get okay money for it, but everyone else knows where it came from, and I bet you won't get nearly the amount you would have for your Kovalchuk whatever redemption you were waiting for. I'm guessing you'll see rock bottom prices on these cards soon enough.

 

[FASTMAX]

So...I can imagine they're sitting on a nice stack of expired redemptions from the past few years. Dual and Triple SOTT autos, SPA auto patches...you name it.

A certian member on the boards was just handed one incredible TRIPLE AUTO from one of these past sets. For what you might ask? Three to four $200 redemptions and his "inconvenience" for having to wait 5-6 MONTHS, 5-6 MONTHS, not 15-18 like a lot of people. You just have to be persistant (call them 3 times a week) and IF you want to swap out your cards, make sure that you ask them for a list of cards that they have. IE: ORR/HOWE/GRETZKY. ect, ect. I wouldnt have believed it if I didnt see it with my own eyes. Upper Deck treats some people like GOLD and others they just could not care about, PERIOD.

 

[Meth68]

That may be the funniest thing I've heard all week. You want the customer to decide what their redemption is worth? Gee...I wonder if the customer will base it on when they redeemed it, what it's currently worth, or which of the two is higher? They need to set a precedent and stick to it. Wonder if the customer is going to 'predict' that his auto patch was going to be 8 colors instead of 1. Huge price difference there.

If I was in their spot, there's no way I'd let the customer decide the value of their own card. I'd have a mediator decide....wait...isn't that what they're doing?

As for Jokinen. I wouldn't worry about his Cup RC. They're in house from what I was told. There are a few others I'd be worried about though.

Read that disclaimer again. It doesn't say we'll replace the card with something till you're satisfied. It says they'll replace it with what they feel is fair. Is it right? Heck no. But what's the point of arguing it when it's right there in black and white in front of your nose?

You also aren't going to guarantee that the card will never see the light of day. There are cards like the Ultimate Phaneuf that have cards on the market and have redemptions. It happened in 03-04 with the Premier Hudler auto patch as well. It would be nice to be guaranteed that, but they don't even put guarantees on box hits anymore...

Chris, I am happy to hear I made you laugh though it wasn't my intent. It's very easy to point out when someone is being unreasonable both by UD and the Customer. Look I am not looking to get a Crosby cup rookie for my jokinen but you know what I am not accepting (4) $50 cards for it either. I know everyone is a crosby/gretzky/orr collector when asked what do they want in exchange for their michael peca auto, but you also have collectors who are honest people and yet both groups are treated the same. Unfortunately by the same I mean both are hosed in the end. So you don't think its fair for UD to have input from the customer as to what they want as their replacement? Oh yea you said they are using a mediator, come on Chris your not that easy to convince are you? Karvin is helping some people which is great, is he a mediator? Not at all. Karvin has help, guess what his help is another upper deck employee. Is that a mediator to you also? To me a mediator is someone who has no link to the company or customer and is considered equal grounds. An employee or 2 employee's from another department from the company doing you over isn't a mediator in my book. When you are told that their high end replacement supply is depleted it's time to get nervous especially when in your eyes its ok for them to do the picking as to what you will receive. It's bad enough that they don't have something equal for you to pick out of but just to make it that much worse you wont even have a choice? That isn't going to happen in my case I can guarantee it.

As for me wanting some sort of guarantee that the card will never see the light of day, I think that is totally reasonable. You need to realize something UD is forcing these replacements on customers. I did not call and complain about my redemptions. I want my card I paid for thats all, take another 5 months I don't care as long as I get the card I paid for. If your telling me it will be impossible to get my card as in "impossible" no way in hell its going to make it out. I can accept I will need a replacement. If you are forcing me to replace a card there better be a good reason behind it. This really didn't bother me that much until I just saw the ovechkin/kolzig "oops" last week, I couldnt help but think what if that was me and one of my cards I paid for.

Steve I understand and agree 100% 05/06 was a much different year and not comparable, but you know what everything they did was to supply the demand of a bunch of new collectors. Thats awesome for them making money but it will also create more problems, you would think a couple would be ready for this. Am I the only one who thinks about the pro's and con's with my decisions? So its ok to overproduce cards for a year but not ok to have some sort of backup plan when this happens? UD was being told for what 3+ years on a regular basis their redemption process is a joke, so it finally crumbles and now they are trying to fix what they screwed up for years in a month? Why rush it, how about turning over a new leaf and attempting to make a customer happy that you did wrong?

 

[Ferris]

I'm sure many guys will be taking advantage of the situation trying to get a huge card for an auto /10 when the auto /10 might break $50 on the 'bay.

Gee Chris, do you know anyone [cough - Tiger Woods auto - cough] that would do such a fowl thing?

 

[odjickfan]

I think there is no excuse for redemptions on sticker autos.

If they don't have stickers in stock, no card.

For the hard-signed stuff, I can understand, if the player lost the cards, etc...

But, for sticker autos, no reason.

 

[samiaa]

Another point that cant be overlooked because of the recent ovechkin/kolzig fiasco last week. I want to 100% certain the card will never show up, if there is a tiny chance it will, well keep my redemption pending then.

For me this is very very important point, they really must be sure that those cards never will be around.

If i receive something instead of my 05/06 Ice Scripts redemptions and then lets say couple months foward and the actual card shows up somewhere i will be mad. Otherwise i dont have problems with finally getting something from UD (ok, it helps that i dont have any huge cards incoming from UD, Mats Sundin Ice Scripts is the highest valued one i have. Paid 160$ for that redemption so i want something nice for it thou.)

-Sami

 

[jaywings19]

Chris - You know that their "replacement" value goes strictly by the "bible" unless you have some sort of "inside connection." Many times I tried to negotiate my replacements only to be told your replacement sent "is based on the current book value of $x.xx" (fill in Beckett value).

 

[quincy]

Two-Pair with the zinger.

Ryan - The discussions I've had suggest exactly that. The people charged with resolving this debacle know the hobby, know the product, and are heading into this with precisely that intent: expedite what's produceable, replace what isn't appropriately and in a reasonably consistent manner.

 

[Ferris]

Ryan - The discussions I've had suggest exactly that. The people charged with resolving this debacle know the hobby, know the product, and are heading into this with precisely that intent: expedite what's produceable, replace what isn't appropriately and in a reasonably consistent manner.

Like I said, I've got a half dozen to a dozen redemptions that I would consider "old" that I expect to be replaced via this process, most of them are from the 04/05 Be A Player debacle (where is ITG's kudos btw for having managed this program in the past so successfully?).

Anyhoo....the thing that gets me is that, and I know this is going to happen, is that all the people that have commented in this thread with "I talked to my guy" are going to get the better redemptions. It's a fact, it's happened in the past. And *that* my friends is total crap.

 

[Ferris]

You can 'suggest' what type of replacement you want...

My point exactly Chris! You can suggest a replacement if you have a connection at Upper Deck that you can speak to on the phone. If you don't then the way it works is when you sign in to your online account they tell you that card xx is being replaced, too bad so sad, and here is a list of 5 cards to choose from that they determine are suitable replacements, and you pick one of those. They're not going to be calling everyone up to discuss resolutions over the phone. It's not the same system for everyone and there are certain individuals that tend to use the connections they have at UD for their own personal gain.

 

[TanguayFan]

Oh how I wish everybody in this thread was in a room together. I have the distinct mental picture of people trying to yell over each other.

Chris, Steve and Vinny all make excellent points. My main point of contention with Vinny's solution is this: how could anybody possibly even conceive of the number of collectors waiting on redemptions? To think anybody, including UD (or any mediator) could contact every collector and hammer out an agreement on each redemption is farsical. We're talking hundreds of thousands, if not MILLIONS, of outstanding redemptions. Remember, they're doing this for Hockey/Golf/Football/Baseball/Basketball/NASCAR and god knows what else. That would take years, and since it's obvious they don't intend to stop using redemptions any time soon, it could potentially be a never-ending loop.

Secondly even if it were possible, how could you do it fairly? The available replacement stock is finite, so that means that whoever they contact first would have the pick of the litter so to speak, and it would get progressivley worse and worse from there, until the guy who gets called last has his choice of either a Cujo SOTT from 00-01 or a Mirko Murovic SOTT from 98-99 in exchange for his 04-05 SP Authentic Octograph.

I certainly agree with Vinny's concern about whether or not a certain card is never going to see the light of day. The precedent set forth with the Kolzog/Ovechkin Dual, Hudler and Sejna Premier RC's and Max Afinogenov SOTT from 04-05 is certainly proof that we can never be sure that UD is being upfront and 100% honest with the collector. Those are all items that supposedly weren't able to be filled, however they're all examples of live copies popping up on auction sites and message boards.

Bottom line is, this is a no win situation for everybody involved. I'm grateful that I've minimized the amount of redemptions that I picked up, as I was want to wait until the live cards hit the market (Kostitsyn Cup RC for example). Looks like it may have paid off in the long run, but even now it's too hard to say until we actually get a chance to understand the whole scope of the issue.

Rob

 

[jaywings19]

Jay - That's where the mess comes in. Ovechkin/Kovalchuk dropped about $150 this month, right? So if by some chance it doesn't get made, you've lost money without doing anything. However, if you had an SPx Flashback, you make out like a winner. There's going to be guys on both sides of the fence and it isn't going to be pretty when people start opening their packages.

Chris - You know it's "current book value"... not what it was listed for at the time it was redeemed. Likewise, you know UD could not care less how much the person actually spent to acquire said redemption.

Another flaw in their "current book value" replacement policy are those cards that are SP'd and listed in the guide... but not priced yet due to lack of market data. Based on my experience, UD treats those as "common" pricing since it does not have a specific book value next to the card.

 

[meatmancgy]

Do you guys not work for a living???? How can you spend so much time debating this issue all day long!!!

Bottom line: Shame on Upper Deck, Shame on the players, Shame on the NHLPA and Shame on the NHL. All four groups allowed this redemption issue to get this ludicrous. All four, not just Upper Deck, need to step up and say "oops, sorry, let's fix this". The NHL and NHLPA need to lean on the players to meet their contractual obligations. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Upper Deck actually contract with the NHLPA, not the players directly? If that's the case, the NHLPA needs to be slapped severely for not enforcing the contract internally with their membership, i.e. the players. If the contracts are directly with the players, the Upper Deck needs to turn up the heat on the players to meet THEIR contractual obligations.

I've also been in discussion with Karvin over my redemptions and the quality control (or lack thereof) at Upper Deck. Karvin is a great guy and is doing what he can, but I think he's fighting a losing battle given the amount of animosity and anger towards Upper Deck. Honestly, even if we all got GREAT replacements, we'd still be pissed off at the situation, so like others have said it's a lose-lose situation for them. All the kudos to Karvin for trying, though; but, as the old proverb goes, "Hell is filled with people with good intentions." I believe Karvin is handcuffed internally. Oh, and I'm sure he's reading this thread too.

The customer is getting screwed over by the situation, and I'm sick of it.

Bruce

 

[Nick2317]

Are they going by when you redeemed it or by when the card is from ......

 

[Meth68]

If you think about it, they don't even have to do that based on what's written on the back of redemption cards.

Chris so in your eyes "anything" as a replacement is a good thing? I mean according to you it seems as if UD is doing us a favor here. I think you need to realize that your selling something to a customer they would expect it, first they expect it within your 12-16 week time line, after that they wait patiently thinking well sooner or later. You cant just pull the carpet from under them and say well here is an osgood auto. I am sure many collectors accept this, I am not one of them sorry. I don't want a $600 tiger woods auto, All I want is the card I attempted to redeem 50+ weeks ago if you can not provide that then prove to me in some way that this card will never be created and I will be happy to being the replacement process. I am not taking the route you seem to be taking, I want to know specifically what they plan on replacing with what. BV means absolutely nothing to me when it comes to replacing a card I wanted with some card of a player I don't collect. I will take a $200 jagr or lundqvist over a $300 forsberg, carter, Richards any day of the week. If I am at the end of the pack where the replacements are down to junk, I am more then happy to keep my pending redemptions just that, pending. I don't want UD to close my case thinking I am happy because they sent me random cards.

I know Karvin knows what cards sell for and book for, so hopefully they don't screw too many guys over. Now if they had any Joe-Blow QA guy doing it....I'd be afraid.

Now to me that is hilarious. Yes Karvin knows cards and I am comfortable with him handling my replacements as well as trusting him when he says the card I am waiting for simply wont become available. Problem is it's not just Karvin doing this, and well I will let you find your answer to your own comment, lets just say be afraid then.


Rob, I think this thread has stayed fairly civil if you think about. I would be confident in saying if you put everyone who replied to this thread in a room it would be much more effective then you would think. UD is obviously a very large company making a ton of product. They have appointed exactly 2 people to handle this hockey redemption replacement mission. 2 people, are you kidding me? If your telling me this is all UD can supply to help us out well forget about handling all of the replacements 1by1 they couldnt even handle 50 in a month like this.My point was to state yes it will be a pain in the *** and nearly impossible to do, how about trying your best to do it this way if you fail people will see the effort rather then bringing squirt guns to a fire and everyone sees there isn't much importance or effort from the beginning. The idea is there by UD, the seriousness is there by Karvin but it ends there. UD time and time again leaves its management hang out to dry with situations like this. Karvin will take a ton of hear for this because many people are going to be extremely upset which is a shame because if that person spoke to him they would think otherwise.



Bruce...I am working I just so happen to work behind a pc all day

 

[quincy]

You're correct - it's not just Karvin doing this. But Karvin and Chad Capone are taking this particular bull by the horns - and that's encouraging.

And while I don't expect them to be telephoning EVERY collector, I wouldn't be surprised if they're making an effort to contact people with big redemptions outstanding - such as Octographs, Sundin Ice Scripts, other scarce nicies, etc. If they're going to spend time talking to people, those people are the ones with whom they SHOULD speak. I think they'll get the most bang for their buck by taking care of high-profile redemptions.

'Cause honestly? I couldn't care less what happens to my $10 Weiss Ice Script - if I get it, if I get a different $10 auto back, whatever. My quads are a different story. And I suspect most collectors will share the sentiment to a greater or lesser degree.

 

[samiaa]

You're correct - it's not just Karvin doing this. But Karvin and Chad Capone are taking this particular bull by the horns - and that's encouraging.

And while I don't expect them to be telephoning EVERY collector, I wouldn't be surprised if they're making an effort to contact people with big redemptions outstanding - such as Octographs, Sundin Ice Scripts, other scarce nicies, etc. If they're going to spend time talking to people, those people are the ones with whom they SHOULD speak. I think they'll get the most bang for their buck by taking care of high-profile redemptions.

'Cause honestly? I couldn't care less what happens to my $10 Weiss Ice Script - if I get it, if I get a different $10 auto back, whatever. My quads are a different story. And I suspect most collectors will share the sentiment to a greater or lesser degree.

I'll agree to that, lesser cards i could not care less IF they make sure the original card wont see daylight.

Also i dont have so many better cards, Sundin Ice Scripts is "best" redemption card i currently have so i actually dont have big worries over this.

Time will tell what happens with this mess.

-Sami