Call to Upper Deck - Not a Happy Camper..

[meatmancgy]

We're going round in circles here. Let's compare this to another industry:

You go to GM and order in a Corvette. They don't have one in stock, but they'll put the order in and it'll be delivered in 12 to 16 weeks. You've just paid $70,000 for the car and look forward to it. After four or five months, the car hasn't come in and the GM dealer says that they're waiting for the engine to be sent in from their engine manufacturer (obviously this is a ridiculous comparison, but bear with me). After a year, still nothing... and you're obviously getting antsy. After two years, the GM rep says that they're going to replace your Corvette with two Cavaliers, since that adds up to the $70,000 you dished out on the Corvette. Even if they offered you a Cadillac Escalade, which is similar in value with all the bling bling, you'd be pissed because you wanted the Corvette.

Would you be happy? Hell no... you bought and PAID for your Corvette, dammit you want a Corvette. Who wants two Cavaliers or an Escalade? GM has had your $70,000 for two years... you've got nothing in return... no interest on your cash... no product... and a bad replacement value. What would you do in this situation? You'd sue GM's a$$ off.

Now, I'm not saying this is a truly fair comparison, given the NHL, NHLPA and players' involvements in the redemption process, but look at it as a simple comparison of this: you paid for something that wasn't delivered, and the replacement offered sux rocks. You want value for your money, and none is being offered.

Something to think about.

Bruce

 

[leafschik1967]

We're going round in circles here. Let's compare this to another industry:

You go to GM and order in a Corvette. They don't have one in stock, but they'll put the order in and it'll be delivered in 12 to 16 weeks. You've just paid $70,000 for the car and look forward to it. After four or five months, the car hasn't come in and the GM dealer says that they're waiting for the engine to be sent in from their engine manufacturer (obviously this is a ridiculous comparison, but bear with me). After a year, still nothing... and you're obviously getting antsy. After two years, the GM rep says that they're going to replace your Corvette with two Cavaliers, since that adds up to the $70,000 you dished out on the Corvette. Even if they offered you a Cadillac Escalade, which is similar in value with all the bling bling, you'd be pissed because you wanted the Corvette.

Would you be happy? Hell no... you bought and PAID for your Corvette, dammit you want a Corvette. Who wants two Cavaliers or an Escalade? GM has had your $70,000 for two years... you've got nothing in return... no interest on your cash... no product... and a bad replacement value. What would you do in this situation? You'd sue GM's a$$ off.

Now, I'm not saying this is a truly fair comparison, given the NHL, NHLPA and players' involvements in the redemption process, but look at it as a simple comparison of this: you paid for something that wasn't delivered, and the replacement offered sux rocks. You want value for your money, and none is being offered.

Something to think about.

Bruce

That would be a better comparison if the fine print on your car deal had a provision about GM replacing the car if they were unable to provide the original car - which is what redemption cards have.

That being said - I'm glad I don't have any redemptions to worry about.

 

[meatmancgy]

Agreed... the comparison has its faults, but I just want us all to think about what we've actually received for our hard-earned cash.

That would be a better comparison if the fine print on your car deal had a provision about GM replacing the car if they were unable to provide the original car - which is what redemption cards have.

That being said - I'm glad I don't have any redemptions to worry about.

 

[Ferrian1]

I guess the one thing I'm not hearing here (maybe I missed it), is what they are doing with respect to cards that there is no reason they can't redeem? I mean if I was their independant 3rd party, I'd be grouping the redemptions into:

New - less than 6 months from production
Unproducable - hard signed type cards where the card stock has been "lost" etc.
No Signatures - player has not signed regularly, very low volumes, constantly misses, etc.
Auto's Available - player has had autos in subsequent products, we're just not getting enough to catch up on old while meeting new demand

So obviously on the unproducable, say so, attempt to replace with something equitable and stick by the fine print on the card. On the no signatures, this is where some review of who he is would be necessary, if it's Afinogenov, replace it, and never use the guy in another product (it's not worth the effort). If it's Gretzky etc then you have to spend some more time working on getting autos (and per other comments leverage your contracts with those people or the NHLPA and push).

But the big group, the most concerning one, is those where they get lots of stickers in and just keeping throwing them on the new product. Someone should be able to build a plan to get these out. I know the idea of saying no new Spezza autos until all redemptions are filled won't work (as you're next product will have no autos in it). But take the time to build a plan and say you're missing 60 players worth of sigs, only use 40 of those guys in the next few products, fill the backlog on the other 20, then switch. You'll still have plenty of autos in products and you'll be working on a gradual plan to fix the old situation without upsetting customers. I for one have no issue with no Spezza auto's in the next 2 sets if it means I get my redemptions.

Of course like everyone I have my biases, most being around the fact that the majority of the redemptions I care about (there's plenty that they can replace to their heart's content) are of players who I collect, and who have been in tonne's of products since. Including a 1/1 - are you going to tell me that in all the sticker's they've gotten in, they couldn't have put out one less of his cards out over the past year and used the sticker on it!

You don't hire a consultant to fix a problem, you hire them to fix it and make sure it doesn't happen again. At least that's what a good one does!

 

[Megatron]

You're correct - it's not just Karvin doing this. But Karvin and Chad Capone are taking this particular bull by the horns - and that's encouraging.

And while I don't expect them to be telephoning EVERY collector, I wouldn't be surprised if they're making an effort to contact people with big redemptions outstanding - such as Octographs, Sundin Ice Scripts, other scarce nicies, etc. If they're going to spend time talking to people, those people are the ones with whom they SHOULD speak. I think they'll get the most bang for their buck by taking care of high-profile redemptions.

'Cause honestly? I couldn't care less what happens to my $10 Weiss Ice Script - if I get it, if I get a different $10 auto back, whatever. My quads are a different story. And I suspect most collectors will share the sentiment to a greater or lesser degree.

My sentiments exactly, I could give a rats arse about my Bourne SPGU auto. or Zetty SPA SOTT BUT I do have concern over all my Signature Sticks /5, Quint Sott, and higher end triples( /15) and shields /1.. My biggest nightmare is getting a package in the mail saying here are some evolve autos as replacements for sticks /5.. Will they be calling or emailing you before sending out replacements, I somehow doubt that as they are just too big a company.. Hope this all works out..
L

 

[X-Head]

If anyone happens to get a Roenick E-Volve auto as a replacement I'll gladly swing a deal with them.

 

[MIKEYSLEAFS]

true value is what
chris i collect leafs hence my hi name and ebay name mikeysleafs
i have a sundin trilogy auto jersey /10 from lasts year redemption and they send me patrick roy auto /10 i would honestly be _issed,why because i collect,don't want it for resell,you keep refering to selling on the butcher block(ebay) thats not a guide,ebaying is under valuing your cards,and most people yes would love roy and if i planned on reselling roy would be better but i don't collect roy,i think we are missing the collecting part that vinny referred too,i bought the sundin to get a sundin too keep,didn't buy a sundin too make money when i get it back,its called COLLECTING.so wanting sundin jersey and getting roy i would sell it and make money,getting doug weight i would sell it and lose money,when all i really wanted was sundin regardless of value for my collection and that goes for all 48 of my redemptions

in closing its not about true value its all about getting the player i collect or the card to complete the set or the players auto i bought as a redemption and if ud can't replace it with the same player then it all goes back to shame on them for putting sundin or alfredsson or kovy or maxim in the set in the first place,they should of just added the guerins and weights in the first place then watch box sales soar

little sarcasm hear how about sending out a box of sp authentic that they _crewed up on also to make the bleeding stop

 

[slckrsx]

You're correct - it's not just Karvin doing this. But Karvin and Chad Capone are taking this particular bull by the horns - and that's encouraging.

And while I don't expect them to be telephoning EVERY collector, I wouldn't be surprised if they're making an effort to contact people with big redemptions outstanding - such as Octographs, Sundin Ice Scripts, other scarce nicies, etc. If they're going to spend time talking to people, those people are the ones with whom they SHOULD speak. I think they'll get the most bang for their buck by taking care of high-profile redemptions.

'Cause honestly? I couldn't care less what happens to my $10 Weiss Ice Script - if I get it, if I get a different $10 auto back, whatever. My quads are a different story. And I suspect most collectors will share the sentiment to a greater or lesser degree.

See here's where the problem is going to be for me. I have all 5 Ice Scripts redemptions pending, I built the set and I want all 5 returned to me. It may seem funny but if I had to choose between the Weiss being made or my Brodeur/Rafalski dual sott I'd rather have the Weiss. So where does that leave me? UD doesn't replace the Sundin Ice Scripts because it's high dollar but the Weiss get's replaced because it's not. In the end I still have an incomplete set and a very bad headache.

Also, all of us here have all the same redempitons pending. Let's take the Sundin Ice Script as an example. UD makes the decision to send out replacements and all of us get our replacements and post them on the site. Member A post's their "equal value" replacement and member B post their "not so equal value" replacement. I'm sure you all can figure out what member B is going to do.

I am very hard on UD and let them know buy suspending my spending on they're product but I respect what they're trying to do here. Don't get me wrong it's totally their fault but what other option do they have?

 

[Meth68]

Steve, I agree it sounds like Karvin is making it his mission to get this settled and I am very happy about that and it is encouraging. What isn't encouraging is at some point the suits at UD must have talked about this and said well we need to do something. Their solution is to throw Karvin and Chad to handle the whole mess. I find that a tad disheartening, I have no worries about the 2 they choose its more so the fact that they only selected 2 people?

Chris this is the issue here, you are right there is a chance the (3) $40 cards will sell for more then the (1) $100 redemption you have. But what if you are actually.....collecting? All of my pending redemptions are pending for a reason, I haven't called UD and screamed that my redemptions are 12+ months old, why? Because I want the actual cards I didn't want to put myself into a situation where I call they say they must be replaced and I have 2 options, select a group of players or don't either way they will be replaced. I don't care what the replacements sell for I purchased them to keep them and I could care less about (3) random $40 cards they have lying around.

If these were all redemptions I pulled from wax and I could care less about them I agree, take whatever package you can make the most money on and run, hell take a stack of ovechkin black diamond rookies. But I am not in a situation like that so I cant. Hopefully that makes more sense as to why I am going to be extremely selective and vocal about my replacements.

 

[gratzi]

All I know is I want my Phaneuf Future Watch rookie that I paid nearly $100 US shipped when it first came out. I don't want numberous cards to make up for that, I want that card and if I don't get it I am going to be pissed.

That was the first and only redemption I've ever bought before there was any redeemed ones out there and it will probly be the last whether I get my card or not.

 

[rhynorat]

There are also other factors that could have put a premium or lessened the value of the card such as the number of colors on Ice auto patch, Hot Prospects patch, or The Cup patch careds. How do they factor that into the value of your replacement? There's a big difference between a 1 color Klepis and 5 color Klepis The Cup auto patch.

Absolutely. While most cards that I have redemptions in for are either autos only for the PC or cards that will not bother me to have replaced, I specifically redeemed a Kovalchuk auto/patch as I knew that a four-color patch in hand (if I were to be so lucky) would be worth far more than a redemption card would bring. That will likely sting me the most if I'm not happy with a replacement.

Some of the cards for which the signature has supposedly been in house for the last 6 months would be nice to have, but since I didn't pay a high premium for any of them (outside of Kovalchuk, highest book value would probably be $60), I'm about at the point where I won't be irritated if the cards are never produced. I might even be happy when it comes to players who have left my favorite team, whose departure was greeted with "Glad to see you go!"

Ryan

PS - I've never been happier than when I saw this thread that I sold the my pulled Sundin Ice Scripts redemption.

 

[davetheking75]

okay just a question about the SPA Future Watches, take Cam Barker for example, there are live autos of the Future Watch Patch Parallels out there. If the Future Watch is not made, how can there be a parallel of a card that doesnt exist? dun dun dunnnnnnnnn

 

[Meth68]

Vinny - not quite sure what the issue is about collecting the card if it gets pulled from the checklist and is never made. If the card's not made, would you rather have replacements or nothing?

Also...thought about this last night and here's something I really don't like. Here's the problem. Redemption cards always tend to sell and list lower than their live counterpart. When the first live versions of the card hit, you almost always see a premium paid for them. So when they use the Beckett value of the redemption card, you're already in the hole to start with. You've probably lost about 10-25% of the value had the card been in hand by going strictly with the price guide value of a redemption card.

There are also other factors that could have put a premium or lessened the value of the card such as the number of colors on Ice auto patch, Hot Prospects patch, or The Cup patch careds. How do they factor that into the value of your replacement? There's a big difference between a 1 color Klepis and 5 color Klepis The Cup auto patch.

Chris I brought up the collecting point only because you made a reference that you won't mind the multiple lower value cards over the redemption because they will sell better. That makes perfect sense if your redemptions are of random players from a wax break. If I have a pending jagr redemption that I paid $200 for, I dont care if a black diamond ovechkin sells for $175 and an ovechkin young gun sells for 80. I would rather have my jagr or an equal valued jagr that I need. This is why if i dont receive something stating the card will never be produced I would rather just keep the redemptions pending. I am not in this to flip them if I were I would love the fact that they are being replaced it's better then waiting at that point.


As for the value, for people with patches they will get hosed because more often then not people like to roll the dice on a patch redemption hoping for a nice patch. Same goes with rookies that have gone up in value. I am still amazed that they will be replacing cup auto patch rookies. Its the hottest set of the year, the highest end UD has ever produced for the nhl and a $100 rookie could sell for $500+ depending on the patch, yet these will be replaced with a $100 card you don't want? It's going to be difficult because UD waiting so long to start this that now a lot of the pending redemptions have fizzled out and have dropped in price, especially since they never became live as you said. Unless something amazing happens over the next month I don't see how many of us with higher end redemptions will be satisfied by this mission.

My question is about current redemptions now. I mean is it safe to say many who know this is going on will back off redemption causing yet another drop in value? If you have a 05/06 spa redemption do you even attempt to redeem it now? I have an extra cam barker rookie, nothing major but I figured I would save it unredeemed until they became live to redeem it. Do I sell it for $3 or do I redeem it and add it to the replacement list.

 

[davetheking75]

My question is about current redemptions now. I mean is it safe to say many who know this is going on will back off redemption causing yet another drop in value? If you have a 05/06 spa redemption do you even attempt to redeem it now? I have an extra cam barker rookie, nothing major but I figured I would save it unredeemed until they became live to redeem it. Do I sell it for $3 or do I redeem it and add it to the replacement list.

i'll take it for 3 bucks

 

[slckrsx]

I just got an email and not that it's any surprise but it looks like my Weiss Ice Scripts will be one of the cards on the chopping block. I was not given any news on the other four but I did enquire about them in my response. I couldn't really care less about my redemptions anymore after finding out I wouldn't be completing my Ice Scripts set, I don't really care what they make and what they don't, give me whatever you want as replacement everything's a loss at this point.

 

[jaywings19]

I just got an email and not that it's any surprise but it looks like my Weiss Ice Scripts will be one of the cards on the chopping block. I was not given any news on the other four but I did enquire about them in my response. I couldn't really care less about my redemptions anymore after finding out I wouldn't be completing my Ice Scripts set, I don't really care what they make and what they don't, give me whatever you want as replacement everything's a loss at this point.

That's exactly the mentality that Upper Deck WANTS you to have. You are playing right into their hands.

 

[gratzi]

So I called Upper Deck this morning and actualyl got through in only a couple minutes. I asked the guy about my Future Watch Phaneuf and he told me I probly got shipped some replacement cards since the redemption was more than 6 months old but he also said it looked like the card has been made. SO I don't know what's gonig on with that card yet. Good thing I didn't have to wait on hold for an hour with a response like that.

 

[Meth68]

I just got an email and not that it's any surprise but it looks like my Weiss Ice Scripts will be one of the cards on the chopping block. I was not given any news on the other four but I did enquire about them in my response. I couldn't really care less about my redemptions anymore after finding out I wouldn't be completing my Ice Scripts set, I don't really care what they make and what they don't, give me whatever you want as replacement everything's a loss at this point.

Just like what Jay said, this is exactly what they are banking on with everyone who they are just sending replacements without even telling anyone about it. Just remember it was your redemption card you purchased, you have every right to refuse the replacement if it doesn't meet your standards.

Interesting seeing someone saying phaneuf spa is being replaced, my stated shipped a week ago. I really hope this isnt the case.

 

[gratzi]

Vinny, the guy told me he thinks it was being placed since it was over 6 months old but then looked into it and said the card was already made. I have a feeling we should be getting it fairly soon.

 

[will-411]

Hmmm... my Eaves SPA auto moved to ship in progress today. Considering it's the only redemption I have, I watch it pretty closely.

I'm curious to see what I get... it's like knowing an NPN is on the way. (I had next to nothing invested in the card, so no biggie however it turns out)

Cory