Canucks/Messier arbitration

[kmitchel]

Oddly enough, the Canucks barely turned over the roster from the year before Messier (Ridley left, Messier replaced him and Chris Joseph was shown the door and Matty Ohlund as a rookie came in) If you consider Ohlund=Joseph a wash, then Messier SHOULD'VE been an upgrade to Ridley and yet, the Canucks dropped 13 points in the standings? You'd think one of the great leaders would've been able to do more than that...

and Messier didn't make the playoffs on his 4 year return to NY either...

 

[JohnnyDrama]

Oddly enough, the Canucks barely turned over the roster from the year before Messier (Ridley left, Messier replaced him and Chris Joseph was shown the door and Matty Ohlund as a rookie came in) If you consider Ohlund=Joseph a wash, then Messier SHOULD'VE been an upgrade to Ridley and yet, the Canucks dropped 13 points in the standings? You'd think one of the great leaders would've been able to do more than that...

and Messier didn't make the playoffs on his 4 year return to NY either...

I can't comment on his Vancouver years but his latter NYR years, the braintrust there was busy picking up overpaid, over-the-hill stars like Bure, Lindros, and Fleury as well as paying guys like Bobby Holik $9M a year so maybe it wasn't all his fault.

 

[Burner]

At the points Messier put up for $6M in Vancouver, you'd have to pay about $8M over 13 years for the same stats today.

 

[Metrags]

I can't comment on his Vancouver years but his latter NYR years, the braintrust there was busy picking up overpaid, over-the-hill stars like Bure, Lindros, and Fleury as well as paying guys like Bobby Holik $9M a year so maybe it wasn't all his fault.

Dont forget Jamie Lundmark, Jan Hlavac, Hugh Jessiman, and Dwight Helminen (who am I forgetting???? And sorry Rags fans for bringing these names up....)



Just for pity's sake, this is the lineup from Messier's first year on the Nucks as posted on wikipedia:

Player GP G A Pts
Pavel Bure 82 51 39 90
Mark Messier 82 22 38 60
Alexander Mogilny 51 18 27 45
Markus Naslund 76 14 20 34
Jyrki Lumme 74 9 21 30
Mattias Ohlund 77 7 23 30
Bret Hedican 71 3 24 27
Brian Noonan 82 10 15 25
Grant Ledyard 39 2 13 15
Bryan McCabe 26 1 11 12
Dave Scatchard 76 13 11 24
Donald Brashear 77 9 9 18
Steve Staios 77 3 4 7


:whatthehell::whatthehell::whatthehell:

 

[kmitchel]

Dont forget Jamie Lundmark, Jan Hlavac, Hugh Jessiman, and Dwight Helminen (who am I forgetting???? And sorry Rags fans for bringing these names up....)



Just for pity's sake, this is the lineup from Messier's first year on the Nucks as posted on wikipedia:

Player GP G A Pts
Pavel Bure 82 51 39 90
Mark Messier 82 22 38 60
Alexander Mogilny 51 18 27 45
Markus Naslund 76 14 20 34
Jyrki Lumme 74 9 21 30
Mattias Ohlund 77 7 23 30
Bret Hedican 71 3 24 27
Brian Noonan 82 10 15 25
Grant Ledyard 39 2 13 15
Bryan McCabe 26 1 11 12
Dave Scatchard 76 13 11 24
Donald Brashear 77 9 9 18
Steve Staios 77 3 4 7


:whatthehell::whatthehell::whatthehell:

Interesting you left out Linden, Gelinas, Sillinger, Bertuzzi and others.

 

[Orca Pod]

Metrags - I have a very basic question which may help us all understand why you blindly use nothing but statistics to support Messier during his time in Vancouver. It definitely appears you did not see many games during his time, based on you criticism of every other player except Messier.

How old are you? The answer this question can tell us a lot.

 

[Metrags]

Interesting you left out Linden, Gelinas, Sillinger, Bertuzzi and others.

Linden was traded that year for Bertuzzi. Gelinas was traded for Geoff Sanderson, who was promptly traded to the sabres for Brad May. Sillinger was traded to the flyers for a pick. Regardless, none of these 4 really shared the load. Even with Sanderson in the mix, this is what you get:

................GP.....G.....A.....PTS
Bertuzzi.....22 6 9 15
Gelinas......24 4 4 8
Sillinger.....48 10 9 19
Linden...... 25 10 7 17
Sanderson..9 0 3 3
May ..........27 9 3 12

Again, Moose had absolute garbage to work with, but irrational Vancouverites expected him to walk on water and deliver a Cup as he had done before with the Oil and Rags.

Just like I dont "blame" Messier for us not making the playoffs when we got him back (we missed them 7 straight years because of an inadequate GM). It is unfair to rant and rave about him destroying a Canuck franchise that was already on the fast track to misery.


Dont forget the previous year when they traded Courtnall and Tikkanen to my Rangers for 2 no-namers.



Orca- I dont play down to people. Counter the facts, and I will respond.

 

[kmitchel]

Linden was traded that year for Bertuzzi. Gelinas was traded for Geoff Sanderson, who was promptly traded to the sabres for Brad May. Sillinger was traded to the flyers for a pick. Regardless, none of these 4 really shared the load. Even with Sanderson in the mix, this is what you get:

................GP.....G.....A.....PTS
Bertuzzi.....22 6 9 15
Gelinas......24 4 4 8
Sillinger.....48 10 9 19
Linden...... 25 10 7 17
Sanderson..9 0 3 3
May ..........27 9 3 12

Again, Moose had absolute garbage to work with, but irrational Vancouverites expected him to walk on water and deliver a Cup as he had done before with the Oil and Rags.
.

I know that Linden was traded for Bertuzzi, I just found it very odd that you left out all the players that were traded to/for during the season. It made the team look worse. Selective editing if it were.

We (as Vancouver fans) didn't expect Messier to bring us a Cup (well, some did but not all), but we thought that he would make the team better. HE DID NOT DO THAT. As I mentioned before, there was virtually no turnover from the season prior to his arrival to his arrival and the team dropped 13 points in the standings.

Now, maybe Messier put up the points that he needed to do, but he didn't lead a damn thing. His 3 years here were marked with internal drama, controversies and leaked stories to the media on how poorly the feel in the dressing room is/was. Leaders don't do that.

Kevin

 

[kmitchel]

Dont forget the previous year when they traded Courtnall and Tikkanen to my Rangers for 2 no-namers.

And this is the Courtnall who after the trade scored 20 more NHL goals (2 more seasons) and the Tikkanen who scored 4 (3 more PT season)? That wasn't much a trade - 4 31 years olds past their prime being shuffled regardless of their past. Noonan got another 10 goals (all as a Canuck before a PT year with the Coyotes) and Nemchinov won the post trade scoring race with 47 (mainly because he held on the longest with 6 seasons after this MASSIVE giveaway by the Canucks).

Yup, that sure was a trade that changed the whole NHL....

 

[Orca Pod]

Metrags. I see you convieniently didn't answer my question, instead quoting more silly statistics from a period of time I suspect you were too young to totally understand the situation.

 

[tiger tiger]

**edited. expanded below

 

[tiger tiger]

Metrags. I see you convieniently didn't answer my question, instead quoting more silly statistics from a period of time I suspect you were too young to totally understand the situation.

I don't think he had the opportunity to watch Messier play for the Canucks game in and game out like we did. Maybe if NYR fans honestly look at Messier's 2nd tour of duty. That was the Messier we got in Vancouver.

The legends of the 1989 and 1994 SCFs over shadows how Messier was just a shadow of the player he was at the twilight of his career. Were the Canucks dysfunctional, yes, but Messier and Keenan were just as much to blame. Messier shouldn't be excused because of what he did in the past or because he was older. He was brought in for veteran leadership. And by getting rid of Linden, it was leadership that Keenan didn't think he could provide. Boy, was he wrong.

But the origin of the problem was ownership who was thinking more of promotion and building hype, instead of a good hockey team. Thank goodness that owner is long gone.

 

[tiger tiger]

Stats can be skewed so easily. Here's a bigger picture.
......................................GP/G/A/P/PIM/ +/-
1993-94 New York Rangers 76 26 58 84 76 25
1994-95 New York Rangers 46 14 39 53 40 8
1995-96 New York Rangers 74 47 52 99 122 29
1996-97 New York Rangers 71 36 48 84 88 12
1997-98 Vancouver Canucks 82 22 38 60 58 -10
1998-99 Vancouver Canucks 59 13 35 48 33 -12
1999-00 Vancouver Canucks 66 17 37 54 30 -15
2000-01 New York Rangers 82 24 43 67 89 -25
2001-02 New York Rangers 41 7 16 23 32 -1
2002-03 New York Rangers 78 18 22 40 30 -2
2003-04 New York Rangers 76 18 25 43 42 3

Notice how Messier's PPG dropped significantly in his first year with the Canucks? Notice the huge drop in +/- too? How about when he got back to NY? PPG continued to drop and +/- was a team worst -25. That was right after being a team worst -15 in the last year with the Canucks.

His +/- only got better when he was the 3rd line C, instead of 1C or 2C, which was really where his playing ability was at given his age.

 

[tiger tiger]

Again, Moose had absolute garbage to work with, but irrational Vancouverites expected him to walk on water and deliver a Cup as he had done before with the Oil and Rags.

Here's the garbage that Moose got to play with in his 2nd tour of duty with NYR. How do you explain -25?

2 Brian Leetch D 82 21 58 79 34 -18
93 Petr Nedved L 79 32 46 78 54 10
14 Theoren Fleury R 62 30 44 74 122 0
20 Radek Dvorak R 82 31 36 67 20 9
11 Mark Messier C 82 24 43 67 89 -25
27 Jan Hlavac L 79 28 36 64 20 3
13 Valeri Kamensky L 65 14 20 34 36 -18
18 Mike York C 79 14 17 31 20 1
9 Adam Graves L 82 10 16 26 77 -16
3 Kim Johnsson D 75 5 21 26 40 -3

And to answer your question, Vancouver fans did not expect Messier to be a Messiah to our team. In fact, most doubted it. I was so weird having Messier, Keenan and Noonan on the Canucks.

But whatever, he was signed so we had to give him a chance. What we got was NOT as advertised. We got to see Messier in the 94 SCF, and he was not even close to that player. What pisses off Vancouver fans is the favouritism, entitlement, and arrogance that came instead of leadership. Messier and Keenan ran Linden out of town. Everyone thought that Linden would be a Keenan favourite since he never took a shift off, but ended up in Keenan's doghouse, while Messier who floated around, missed defensive responsibilities, etc., could do no wrong in Keenan's eyes. On top of that, Messier never took ownership for his poor play. Tough to motivate the locker room when the laziest player is your captain and has it in with the coach.

Make no mistake, Messier was Keenan's guy. Keenan and Messier ran Linden out of Vancouver. It makes sense. It had to be Messier's room. He had to be "the guy", was wasn't going to let Linden even be an assistant captain. Plus you couldn't have the former captain sitting around because the comparisons would be to easy to make, especially by the fans and media.

You're just as irrational as you claim Vancouverites to be. You give him a free pass when Messier doesn't deserve it. You still got your 1994 tinted glasses on.

As a NYR fan, do you remember when Messier signed in Vancouver? Didn't you wonder what the heck is Messier doing?!



***yes, Messier is owed the money, it doesn't matter whether he deserves it or not. It was a stupid contract given by an idiotic owner to entice a player well past his prime to go to a team he just beat in the SCF a few years back. Everyone knew that Messier did it just for the money. It was apparent from day 1. It was just a giant fiasco.

A close comparison was how Hossa went from the Pens to Wings the very next year after losing to them in the SCFs.

 

[newfiecomicguy1]

1 player can only do so much in a team sport no matter how great they are. Moose was exceptional but probably never great as a player. He was a strong captain, one of the best however even a than you can only get so much out of your players. Even the 94 NYR cup winning team was filled with former Oiler champs and some older good solid players and a few good young players. No team can win every year!!! Moose's career stats and achievements speak for themselves and he showed up in the big games at key moments. I am glad he got his money from the Canucks, he was owed it so pay up.

 

[bamlinden]

To me, it wasn't about getting a Cup. It was about the attitude and respect (or lack thereof) towards some of the players (Linden included).

Did Trev's numbers fall around the time Messier came to Vancouver? Sure. But he was made out to be a complete non-factor in Vancouver. Tossing Messier the C with not so much as a thank you was disappointing to see. Messier and Keenan treated Trev like he was invisible. And I won't ever forget that about them.

For such a 'great leader' that Messier is, he sure didn't show those skills while in Vancouver. It was a team divided.

 

[newfiecomicguy1]

Blame management rather than Messier. To bring Messier in was a slap in the face of Linden.

 

[kmitchel]

Blame management rather than Messier. To bring Messier in was a slap in the face of Linden.

It was ownership that brought Messier in - not management.

But regardless of that, Messier didn't make the situation better - he divided the room and did NOTHING to make the team - a team. Later, when Trevor came back and Nazzy was the captain, he (Trevor) knew how to come into a locker room with leadership and not step onto any toes and yet he (Trevor) was still able to provide a voice of leadership in the locker room.

Messier took a paycheck while in Vancouver but his heart was still in NYR. It was a mistake for him to come to Vancouver and a mistake for Vancouver to sign him.

Kevin

 

[Metrags]

I know that Linden was traded for Bertuzzi, I just found it very odd that you left out all the players that were traded to/for during the season. It made the team look worse. Selective editing if it were.

Kevin

Kevin, I took it right off wikipedia actually (I think I said that in my original post too). So they did the selective editing :hug: You mentioned the other names and gave me an 'oh yeah' moment. :beer:

Metrags. I see you convieniently didn't answer my question, instead quoting more silly statistics from a period of time I suspect you were too young to totally understand the situation.

Stats dont lie, opinionated fans do.

You complain that a 36 year old couldn't save your team, and I pointed out that not even Crosby could save that franchise at the time. 'Silly stats' hold more water than your bitter feelings kid.

Here's the garbage that Moose got to play with in his 2nd tour of duty with NYR. How do you explain -25?

The Rags were atrocious defensively, and ended up being dead last in the league in goals against. Messier did not play on the scoring line either (The 'Czech line' was our best consisting of Nedved - Dvorak - Hlavac).


That line was GARBAGE on defense as you can clearly tell by the names. So Moose and his linemates were more or less there for 'role play' purposes. For the record, his linemates altered between Fleury (0), Kamensky (-18), York (1), and Graves (-16). This group was also more or less on the ice to defend leads (because you werent going to put the czech mates out there).


That is how I can help explain the Rangers 10th place finish and Messier's -25. Needless to say, I already knew the Rags were terrible at the time. But thanks for bringing it back to the forefront of my memory :beer:

The good thing that came out of that year???? We drafted a guy by the name of Hank Lundqvist in the 7th round

 

[Orca Pod]

Stats dont lie, opinionated fans do.

You complain that a 36 year old couldn't save your team, and I pointed out that not even Crosby could save that franchise at the time. 'Silly stats' hold more water than your bitter feelings kid.

Hey everyone! Notice how he is still avoiding answering the one question I asked him?

I did like the added touch of him adding 'kid' to the end of the sentence though. I haven't really thought myself a 'kid' for 30 years.

Dude, here's another saying about statistics you may not know: 'Statistics never lie, and liars use statistics.'

Now, for the third time, how old are you? An honest answer to this question can really help us understand why you are defending Moose to the degree you are. I suspect (because of your age) you have absolutely no idea about what happened during this time from first-hand knowledge, and this is the reason you are using nothing but flimsy statistics to base your entire argument.