Pronger getting better with age!

Chris pronger threads will always be fun for 1 simple reason:
Untill hes on your team and u see him in the playoffs playing 30 minutes a night you cant really appreciate him!
hes one of those guys that you hate untill he is doing this:

gp g a +/- pm toi shifts/gm
Chris Pronger PHI D 12 4 7 11 3 6 3 0 0 0 20 20.0 29:39 35.3 0.0

ohh thats leading all defenseman in the playoffs in time on ice and shifts/gm
second in pts
and has played almost 360 minutes and only taken 3 minor penalties
not to mention all the blocked shots!
 
sevenwings said:
I knew when i posted this comment that there would be many who disagree,
hey i dont like admitting it either but facts are facts. I can go down the line and point out the faults of all the other d-men mentioned, Stevens, Housley, Macginnis, Leetch, Bourque
etc... down the line none of them have switched teams like Pronger and then brought those teams to the stanley cup. Pronger leaves Edmonton they havent been the same , leaves the Ducks and yes with Neidermayer still there and they go down hill, I would assume leaves Philly and they to would end the same. Now Like I said to start im not a fan of Pronger in anyway and yes hes not as flashy or as polished as some other d-men but defense to me is more about presence than anything else.
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Out of all those names, I would only say that Stevens would be considered the same "Generation" as Pronger. The others played a large portion of their careers in the 80's and early 90's. Maybe Leetch could be a stretch, but to be listed as only behind Scott Stevens and Brian Leetch is pretty good company in my opinion.
 
GrimUSMC said:
The Hart Trophy is huge. Plus, Blake was not the dominant D-man on any of those cup teams, Pronger was.

And thats not to take anything away from Blake, he is also a great D-man. I just think hes a few notches below Pronger. Thats just my opinion. I would also love to see Blake in Orange and Black
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C'mon, all kidding aside isn't the Hart for Pronger a joke? I mean Norris he deserved but MVP? He only had like 60 points! I think it was his +52 that got it for him. I never understood him winning that and I don't think I ever will.
 
wingnut888 said:
C'mon, all kidding aside isn't the Hart for Pronger a joke? I mean Norris he deserved but MVP? He only had like 60 points! I think it was his +52 that got it for him. I never understood him winning that and I don't think I ever will.
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Didnt the Blues have the best record in the league that year? And weren't they dominant and he was considered to be an extremely important piece of that dominance?
 
GrimUSMC said:
Didnt the Blues have the best record in the league that year? And weren't they dominant and he was considered to be an extremely important piece of that dominance?
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Yes, also got knocked out in the first round of the playoffs (not that it has anything to do with the MVP). I guess to me I'm not a fan of d-men or goalies winning MVP unless it's extraordinary like a Hasek type season. The stats and him winning MVP make no sense to me. Though I'm a hater I am interested in others opinions on it or if I'm on an island alone.
 
wingnut888 said:
Yes, also got knocked out in the first round of the playoffs (not that it has anything to do with the MVP). I guess to me I'm not a fan of d-men or goalies winning MVP unless it's extraordinary like a Hasek type season. The stats and him winning MVP make no sense to me. Though I'm a hater I am interested in others opinions on it or if I'm on an island alone.
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Im with you on Goalies, but D-men change games without being on the score sheet. Those things are very important, and the mere fact that he was a +52 is just sick. I think if a D-man can dominate the game, he should be rewarded with a Hart Trophy. And Dominate doesnt mean he needs to put up Paul Coffey type numbers. They are supposed to play defense first (make a note of that Mike Green).
 
And yes, I am pretty certain all voting is done prior to the start of the postseason.
 
GrimUSMC said:
Im with you on Goalies, but D-men change games without being on the score sheet. Those things are very important, and the mere fact that he was a +52 is just sick. I think if a D-man can dominate the game, he should be rewarded with a Hart Trophy. And Dominate doesnt mean he needs to put up Paul Coffey type numbers. They are supposed to play defense first (make a note of that Mike Green).
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You see I would go with you but when I set here and watch Lidstrom put up 18G 44A +40 in 02-03

Then put up
10G 60A +40 in 07-08

And not get even nominated for the MVP it kind of debunks the argument to me. Also you can go with Vlad Konstantinov back in 95-96 who put up a +60 along with 14G and 20A and nothing there either.
 
wingnut888 said:
You see I would go with you but when I set here and watch Lidstrom put up 18G 44A +40 in 02-03

Then put up
10G 60A +40 in 07-08

And not get even nominated for the MVP it kind of debunks the argument to me. Also you can go with Vlad Konstantinov back in 95-96 who put up a +60 along with 14G and 20A and nothing there either.
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But the counter to that will always be "was he the most valuable player to his team?". The Detroit teams were STACKED, but I do agree with the year Konstantinov had he should have had at least some chatter about a Hart nomination. Who did win it that year? Jagr??

EDIT: SOrry, wrong Pen, Lemiuex won it.
 
This might have something to do with that as well:

1995–96 Lemieux, Mario Pittsburgh Penguins 161
1996–97 Lemieux, Mario Pittsburgh Penguins 102
1997–98 Jagr, Jaromir Pittsburgh Penguins 102
1998–99 Jagr, Jaromir Pittsburgh Penguins 127
1999–2000 Jagr, Jaromir Pittsburgh Penguins 096
2000–01 Jagr, Jaromir Pittsburgh Penguins 121


Look at the points totals for the Art Ross winner. There was no dominant force in 99-00.
 
GrimUSMC said:
But the counter to that will always be "was he the most valuable player to his team?". The Detroit teams were STACKED, but I do agree with the year Konstantinov had he should have had at least some chatter about a Hart nomination. Who did win it that year? Jagr??

EDIT: SOrry, wrong Pen, Lemiuex won it.
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A quick look at the stats has 2 players with more points than Pronger
Pavol Demitra 75 pts
Pierre Turgeon 66 pts

They also had Handzus 25 goals and Scott Young with 24 goals. Along with Al MacInnis with nearly 40 points.
To me he was good but it's not like it was a team of nobodys out there. Not saying he might not have been worthy of a nomination for Hart but to me those aren't numbers that show me domination. I mean Lidstrom that year had 73 pts and was a plus 19 also.

As far as Konstantinov goes he never got the respect he deserved though he wasn't around long enough to probably earn more. I wouldn't have given him even a nomination for Hart but the numbers were impressive.
 
GrimUSMC said:
This might have something to do with that as well:

1995–96 Lemieux, Mario Pittsburgh Penguins 161
1996–97 Lemieux, Mario Pittsburgh Penguins 102
1997–98 Jagr, Jaromir Pittsburgh Penguins 102
1998–99 Jagr, Jaromir Pittsburgh Penguins 127
1999–2000 Jagr, Jaromir Pittsburgh Penguins 096
2000–01 Jagr, Jaromir Pittsburgh Penguins 121


Look at the points totals for the Art Ross winner. There was no dominant force in 99-00.
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Probably the reason he won right there. If the vote totals were down there I bet it was really close with him edging out Jagr.
 
wingnut888 said:
A quick look at the stats has 2 players with more points than Pronger
Pavol Demitra 75 pts
Pierre Turgeon 66 pts

They also had Handzus 25 goals and Scott Young with 24 goals. Along with Al MacInnis with nearly 40 points.
To me he was good but it's not like it was a team of nobodys out there. Not saying he might not have been worthy of a nomination for Hart but to me those aren't numbers that show me domination. I mean Lidstrom that year had 73 pts and was a plus 19 also.

As far as Konstantinov goes he never got the respect he deserved though he wasn't around long enough to probably earn more. I wouldn't have given him even a nomination for Hart but the numbers were impressive.
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I think we deviate from each other in the numbers. There should be people with more points then Pronger on the team, hes a D-man, lol. I did not watch many Blues games that year, or any year for that mater, but I would be willing to bet he logged a ton of ice time, and was there go to shut down guy for other teams top lines.

We may disagree, but it is definitely a good argument though :beer:
 
Pronger = win.

Ever since he got here i've loved him... he can poke check, keep you to the outside, play tough, score goals, and has a nice outlet pass. I think his stupid play is a thing of the past. Nothing but heart from him every game, the guy never gives up. Come playoff time he is a massive asset... i'd put him in the top 10 of my generation...
 
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The best Dman on any team he has played on, that I can remember, but not even close to the best of any thing generation related.

I remember his Whalers days....lol
 
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The one thing that interests me the most out of this conversation is the comment that Pronger isn't even in the top 5 defensemen of his era/generation. Supposing Pronger's "era" is 1995-2010, who are the 5 D-Men that outplayed him in the span of their career?

I'll spot you Lidstrom, Niedermayer and possibly Rob Blake and Brian Leetch...who are the others supposing Pronger is #6?

I'm going to exclude Chelios, MacInnis (Norris Trophy in 98 aside,) Stevens, Bourque, Coffey and even Larry Murphy, whose heydays I would consider to be the 1980-95ish era.

Look, I don't like Chris Pronger...but at the same time, I have to admit I think he's one of the top 5 of the last 15 years in a second. :rolleyes:
 
And the debate goes on

like I said at the start of this thread to me Pronger is one of the top of his generation and the reasons are simple ....he wins. I have seen all of the D-Men mentioned in the past quote and still I dont see how and why they are better, Leech, he was a great offensive d-man but only 1 cup and he didnt get that until Messier showed up and took the "C". Neidermayer is another great offensive d-man the like of Borque but lets be honest he had Broduer and Stevens and the system in NJ and he had Pronger in Cali, Blake was for a short period dominant but definetly not over a large period of time and he never switched teams and lead that other team to anything. I still say that at the end of the day I would take Pronger in his prime over these others.
 

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