PWCC served with FBI Subpoena at the 2019 National

To date - the only graded cards I have in my possession are ones that I have personally submitted or I know directly where and who they came from when they were submitted.

It is an issue - but if you're holding onto cards for the PC and they're mostly your own, I'm fine with still submitting to PSA or BGS if I were ever to move on pieces in the future - namely the pile of 2018 Topps Update RCs of Acuna, Soto and Torres that I will eventually get to doing at some point...
 
PWCC and Probstein are still selling trimmed cards like its candy in a store. What a shame.

At least with PSA you can punch in the serial number on their website and it'll tell you the auction history of that particular copy, if it has one, and who sold it. It's one way of finding out which copies originated from PWCC or probstein because they list all their items as auction style and include the serial numbers in the listings, so it appears in the auction history of the card.

If I went through all of the PSA copies of YG's like McDavid or Matthews that are on eBay right now I bet more than half of them would have been initially sold by one of those two consignors. I've found tons of them already just in my research. At the very least you can avoid cards sold by PWCC/probstein in the past and reduce your chances of buying something fishy.
 
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At least with PSA you can punch in the serial number on their website and it'll tell you the auction history of that particular copy, if it has one, and who sold it. It's one way of finding out which copies originated from PWCC or probstein because they list all their items as auction style and include the serial numbers in the listings, so it appears in the auction history of the card.

If I went through all of the PSA copies of YG's like McDavid or Matthews that are on eBay right now I bet more than half of them would have been initially sold by one of those two consignors. I've found tons of them already just in my research. At the very least you can avoid cards sold by PWCC/probstein in the past and reduce your chances of buying something fishy.

Excellent information indeed. Sadly McDavid is a hotbed for trimmed cards. Any information that we can get before spending our hard earned money, the better.
 
Who's slabs do you prefer Jeremy? I see pros and cons to both. The PSA slabs seem sleeker and clearer, with IMO nicer labels, but it seems like the cards can move around more inside. BGS slabs have the sub grades and inner sleeve which seems nice as far as preventing movement but they are also bulkier and seem to be more cloudy than the PSA slabs.

I prefer the PSA slab for their sleekness versus the bulkier BGS slab. This is a concern for me as I only have so much room where I store my cards and its getting very tight in there.

However, I do have some BGS cards in my PC that I do not plan to cross over but those are all post-1989, (my cutoff for vintage)

My general rule now is vintage = PSA, Modern = PSA or BGS.

MNT to me is just an expensive holder. I do not see them ever giving BGS or PSA a run for their money, they started without credibility and that isn't their fault, its just that's what happens when you enter an industry with no credible experience. Similar to if I opened a restaurant and took the job of head chef and have no cooking experience. If you truly do not care about maxing out your ultimate resale, then by all means use them, that is a nice holder you are getting for your money. I can see them carving out a small slice of the Canadian market like KSA has, but that's about it.
 
To date - the only graded cards I have in my possession are ones that I have personally submitted or I know directly where and who they came from when they were submitted.

It is an issue - but if you're holding onto cards for the PC and they're mostly your own, I'm fine with still submitting to PSA or BGS if I were ever to move on pieces in the future - namely the pile of 2018 Topps Update RCs of Acuna, Soto and Torres that I will eventually get to doing at some point...

Totally agree and I would only submit cards that I have been packed pulled personally but not sure of the end result!
 
I like MNT and believe they will gain more traction in the industry very soon...but I can't say by buying MNT graded cards that you'll be able to avoid trimmed cards with absolute certainty.

They won’t.

They need the American collectors backing them and they’ll never have that. They may overtake KSA but even that will take work. I wish them the best, but they’re in a market that won’t allow them to be as big as it sound you might be imagining them to be.
 
Just reading this post from beginning to end to me is very disheartening... We have several companies proved to have graded cards that are trimmed, recoloured, lower than the actual grade, etc. for multiple companies including PSA and BGS and we still bad mouth KSA and MNT, SGC, etc. because they have no credibility. HELLO!!!!! The other companies should have less credibility as they've been caught recently by grading cards that are clearly trimmed, recoloured, etc. So the end result is... can you trust ANY grading company? Some people will say yes PSA is best. Some BGS is best. Some SGC is best, etc etc. The fact is they all have humans doing the grading and there's always going to be a human element to the entire grading system. You can honestly submit the same card with ANY of these companies and get 3 different grades because you'll likely get a different grader each time. Is it perfect? No it isn't and the fact is will never be perfect as long as we have humans doing the grading. Until there's a computer program that will grade the card there will always be grades that are subjective. Why isn't there a computer program that grades it? There should be a way to do it down to the decimal point. Why can't a card be a 9.27 and the next one that looks similar be a 9.25 etc etc. I think they only way the grading industry gets better is by switching to a computer based grading system. Take the human element out of it to prevent briberies, better grades for better customers, etc. This should be very simple to implement as they should be ale to do measurements of the card, if the edges aren't straight (trimmed), surface and corners shouldn't be that hard to do with with large (1200+) DPI image scans. Please tell me this can't be done??? If it's computer based we get the real grade and will take the human element out of the entire process. Sorry human graders but you just aren't consistent enough or take too many bribes in order for this to continue in the future. I've literally been at the bottom of that totem pole too long and see many cards in worse shape than mine continue to get better grades than mine. I recently spent $2500 in grading fees to PSA and they didn't even slab a card. How can they charge full price per card if they don't actually slab them. Why should I pay $500 for a card that doesn't even get slabbed when a person getting a PSA 9 pays the same price? It's not right as it should not carry the same grading price as one that does get slabbed... To me these are issues that need to get fixed in order for ANY graded company needs to address because every single one of these companies have issues. To honestly say that one is better than the other is an actual joke because every single one has issues.... There is not one company out there right now that I would say they got their **** together and they are obviously the hobby standard. And that's pretty sad at this point in time, with some grading companies nearing 30 years of offering the service. You'd think they'd have the process down pat by now....

That's my opinion on the entire grading issues going on in this hobby right now...

Rod
 
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I know we have discussed this before, Rod, and in this day and age with computers and programming, this should already be implemented. There are a lot of computer people......DO IT ALREADY!!!!!
 
Just reading this post from beginning to end to me is very disheartening... We have several companies proved to have graded cards that are trimmed, recoloured, lower than the actual grade, etc. for multiple companies including PSA and BGS and we still bad mouth KSA and MNT, SGC, etc. because they have no credibility. HELLO!!!!! The other companies should have less credibility as they've been caught recently by grading cards that are clearly trimmed, recoloured, etc. So the end result is... can you trust ANY grading company? Some people will say yes PSA is best. Some BGS is best. Some SGC is best, etc etc. The fact is they all have humans doing the grading and there's always going to be a human element to the entire grading system. You can honestly submit the same card with ANY of these companies and get 3 different grades because you'll likely get a different grader each time. Is it perfect? No it isn't and the fact is will never be perfect as long as we have humans doing the grading. Until there's a computer program that will grade the card there will always be grades that are subjective. Why isn't there a computer program that grades it? There should be a way to do it down to the decimal point. Why can't a card be a 9.27 and the next one that looks similar be a 9.25 etc etc. I think they only way the grading industry gets better is by switching to a computer based grading system. Take the human element out of it to prevent briberies, better grades for better customers, etc. This should be very simple to implement as they should be ale to do measurements of the card, if the edges aren't straight (trimmed), surface and corners shouldn't be that hard to do with with large (1200+) DPI image scans. Please tell me this can't be done??? If it's computer based we get the real grade and will take the human element out of the entire process. Sorry human graders but you just aren't consistent enough or take too many bribes in order for this to continue in the future. I've literally been at the bottom of that totem pole too long and see many cards in worse shape than mine continue to get better grades than mine. I recently spent $2500 in grading fees to PSA and they didn't even slab a card. How can they charge full price per card if they don't actually slab them. Why should I pay $500 for a card that doesn't even get slabbed when a person getting a PSA 9 pays the same price? It's not right as it should not carry the same grading price as one that does get slabbed... To me these are issues that need to get fixed in order for ANY graded company needs to address because every single one of these companies have issues. To honestly say that one is better than the other is an actual joke because every single one has issues.... There is not one company out there right now that I would say they got their **** together and they are obviously the hobby standard. And that's pretty sad at this point in time, with some grading companies nearing 30 years of offering the service. You'd think they'd have the process down pat by now....

That's my opinion on the entire grading issues going on in this hobby right now...

Rod

This 100%. No one seems to be holding BGS or PSA's feet to the fire adequately over this. These changes to avoid these issues could be implemented, but due to cost its unlikely until they are forced to. They wont do it voluntarily until it costs them more to not do it than it does to make changes. They are making an awful lot of money looking the other way. Greed rules the day. Lets hope they don' t do too much damage to the hobby before they do it.
 
The TPG’s aren’t just looking away, they are giving favourable treatment to particular dealers. PSA actually has a program where a grader will sort through a dealers cards and pull only 10’s. Minimum 1k cards at 6 dollars per card.

The game is rigged, and those BO threads have all the info anyone needs to make their own decisions on how to collect. I refuse to play rigged games so my response is to collect raw. I’m not naive enough to think I will have an impact but I’m not going to get played by the TPG and their dealer network
 
I know we have discussed this before, Rod, and in this day and age with computers and programming, this should already be implemented. There are a lot of computer people......DO IT ALREADY!!!!!

What is the incentive for the TPG’s to catch alterations? It would eliminate a large number of new high grade pops.

Ask anyone that went to shows in the 80s. High grade raw was very rare. Now there are minty 100 year old cards popping all the time. Incredible that a tobacco card that was packed in a pack of smokes, played with, kept in a shoebox could pop up mint 110 years later. Makes no sense. The most famous card in the hobby is trimmed - the trimmer has testified under oath to this. And yet that card remains in a psa 8 slab.

Enough ranting from me and I totally understand opinions different to mine. Collect what you want but I just want everyone to understand that there are tiers to grading and the retail submitter is bottom tier.
 
You'll get computer grading when the grading companies figure they can now get you to break all the slabs you already have questions about and pony up for a third (at least) time on the same card - the initial purchase, the grading and now the regrading with better specifics.
 
You'll get computer grading when the grading companies figure they can now get you to break all the slabs you already have questions about and pony up for a third (at least) time on the same card - the initial purchase, the grading and now the regrading with better specifics.

I think too many people would be afraid to break their 9 slab (hoping for a 10) only to have a computer grade it a 7 or 8, because that's probably the grade it should have had in the first place if the ''humans make mistakes'' factor was taken away.

If anything I think a lot of high volume card submitters are taking advantage of the huge backlog and rushed process to get better grades from busy graders who are stretched too thin.

Read the submission threads on forums like Blowout where some of the heavy hitters play and they're absolutely catching on to the perhaps more lenient grading in recent months/years. Lots and lots of people are trying to bump grades on previously graded cards OR sending stuff they may not have sent before because what might have been an 8 or 9 under tighter standards might get a 9 or 10 this time. This of course only adds to the ever growing backlog and makes the turnaround times even longer. Viscous cycle.
 
That McDavid is absolutely tiny. Does anyone believe that if they submitted the same card it would get a 10? Would love to know who subbed that one, would bet everything I own its a large submitter with favourable terms. I refuse to believe that a TPG could pass a 5k card like that and not know its way undersized.
 

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