So Devils fans........

89chinook said:
It's not working if teams can't dress a full complement of players! I don't care which team it is. I don't pay to watch games where the teams are shorthanded before the game starts. The need to be able to dress a full team.
Maybe a fine would be in order to do so or something like that, but I still want to see a full team.
:beer:
Dan V.

See above!

I agree, there has to be away for a team (All teams) to keep their free agents. There's a Bruce Willis movie where one of the owners states "Free agency ruined the game." I totally agree! There is no such thing as Loyalty in the game anymore. Even the fans jump ship so often you don't know who's cheering for who nor who's playing for who. Most players only play for the money, no loyalty to the team that drafts them or trades for them. And the fans only want the next Sid or Ovie. I have cheered for the Flames & Devils ever since they got into the league. I don't jump ship just because they are going through a rough time.(Lord knows I've been cheering for them during some ugly years.:devil:) The CBA has made it tough on all teams and the ugly Kovy contract and ones like it, only go to show that the CBA needs an update.
:beer:
Dan V.
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Your complaining about the situation the Devils put themselves in.........they knew the problems before the season started and did nothing to remedy it then and now your complaining ......
 
suitman19 said:
The real cap problem is that Lou thought he was going to dump one of those players earning $3-4 and did not get any bites.... posssibly because EVERY GM knew he had put the cart before the horse. While Lou is great - he is not above mis-steps and signing Kovalchuk BEFORE he was sure he could shift space was a mistake.


Now what to do - between a rock and a hard place, the only players other teams may take are ones that you do not want to give up. No one is taking Jamie L - nor will they probably take Brian Rollston. Bide your time - make the playoffs as best you can, and for crying out loud:
DO NOT PLAY BRODEUR FOR 72/80 GAMES!!!!

He is 38 - and that work load does not make you sharp, it makes you tired.
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:dance::dance:Yahoo! I'm with you and couldn't of said it better. Thank you!
 
my opinion on Kovalchuk is that you don't pay a one-dimensional winger that kind of money, especially when you are so tight on your cap.

teams need to spend money on centers, goalies and top-4 d-men. NJ needs at least another d-man or two and clearly they are way too tight on the cap. they don't have any room to upgrade at the deadline or replace injured players.

look at Hossa. his cap hit is less than $6M and he's a much better two-way player than Kovalchuk. he can do whatever you ask him to do. he can kill penalties, play up and down the lineup and do what you have to do to win hockey games, especially in the playoffs. i think he's worth more than Kovalchuk to a team and his cap hit is significantly lower.

look at the high scoring wingers that have signed recently. Nash, Gaborik, Kovalchuk. what do they have in common?

one dimensional scoring wingers
cap hit of right around $7M
no record of winning

is it because the teams they have been on or is it because they take up so much cap room that the teams they are on can't field a strong roster? i don't know, but you don't see too many great teams with super high-priced wingers.

ovechkin, yes, but clearly he can elevate a team (a bad team at that) to a playoff contender. kovalchuk couldn't.

malkin - first, he's been mainly a center and he has Crosby on his team so he doesn't have to carry the team.

zetterberg - again, really a center and he has Datsyuk plus he's a two-way player unlike Kovalchuk.

i think Kovalchuk is a fine scorer, possibly top 5 goal scorer in the league. but i just don't think a team can afford to invest that much money in a guy like Kovalchuk/Gaborik/Nash

we'll see - maybe a team with a high priced sniper will win a Cup one day in the cap era. but it hasn't happened yet.
 
gretzky99 said:
my opinion on Kovalchuk is that you don't pay a one-dimensional winger that kind of money, especially when you are so tight on your cap.

teams need to spend money on centers, goalies and top-4 d-men. NJ needs at least another d-man or two and clearly they are way too tight on the cap. they don't have any room to upgrade at the deadline or replace injured players.

look at Hossa. his cap hit is less than $6M and he's a much better two-way player than Kovalchuk. he can do whatever you ask him to do. he can kill penalties, play up and down the lineup and do what you have to do to win hockey games, especially in the playoffs. i think he's worth more than Kovalchuk to a team and his cap hit is significantly lower.

look at the high scoring wingers that have signed recently. Nash, Gaborik, Kovalchuk. what do they have in common?

one dimensional scoring wingers
cap hit of right around $7M
no record of winning

is it because the teams they have been on or is it because they take up so much cap room that the teams they are on can't field a strong roster? i don't know, but you don't see too many great teams with super high-priced wingers.

ovechkin, yes, but clearly he can elevate a team (a bad team at that) to a playoff contender. kovalchuk couldn't.

malkin - first, he's been mainly a center and he has Crosby on his team so he doesn't have to carry the team.

zetterberg - again, really a center and he has Datsyuk plus he's a two-way player unlike Kovalchuk.

i think Kovalchuk is a fine scorer, possibly top 5 goal scorer in the league. but i just don't think a team can afford to invest that much money in a guy like Kovalchuk/Gaborik/Nash

we'll see - maybe a team with a high priced sniper will win a Cup one day in the cap era. but it hasn't happened yet.
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Clearly, you have not seen much of Kovy. He's anything but one-dimensional.

It's harsh to label him as a non proven winner since he played for one of the league's wekest teams. Sure, he had Heatley for a few years and Hossa for a time, but little else. He's 27 years old, his best years may lie ahead.

It's been a while since NJ put some excitement on the ice, but Kovy, Parise, Elias and Zajac can change that.
 
I think Kovalchuk is among the best in the world at what he does but what he does is solely offense. There is a place on a team for goal scoring wings but they can't be central to winning teams. The NHL is now about managing assets and spending large chunks of your cap on guys like Kovalchuk has not proven to work - especially when you have so little room to work with to start.

Things can change but until it happens it's the way things are.
 
Saying the Devils were wrong to pay Kovy big money is hogwash.

He is an unproven winner, then again look at the team he was stuck on.

No one can say that he makes a team worse. He is the only reason the THrashers won anything in the last few years. While he is not a traditional 2-way forward, he is anything but one dimensional.


The devils have the players, who knows why they arent winning right now. I still say they should not have gotten Arnott and Rolston (or at least go for Sykora, Niedermayer, and Stevens as well ....), and they should have found a replacement for Brodeur. But even then, you cant really blame these losses on them either.
 
89chinook said:
It's not working if teams can't dress a full complement of players! I don't care which team it is. I don't pay to watch games where the teams are shorthanded before the game starts. The need to be able to dress a full team.
Maybe a fine would be in order to do so or something like that, but I still want to see a full team.
:beer:
Dan V.
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you're right. the league should have forced NJ to play with a full roster AND remain under the cap for each game. if they can't afford to put a player on the ice because of cap limitations, they should make him a healthy scratch until they can play him again while keeping the team under the cap.
 
Make sure we know the rules BEFORE we castigate NJ & even Detroit.

There is a fine provision in the rules, but there is also an exclusion for 'extreme circumstances'. If NJ were to run into 3 or more games with a shortened lineup there would be penalties from the NHL - but so far, it was for only one game (I think - not two?). If the media had not made such a big deal about it - I venture to say you would not even have noticed the shortened line-up, and certainly your viewing pleasure would not have been diminished. We are talking about 4th liners that probably average 5-6 minutes at most of ice time.

The issue is still tied to injuries and the rules of LTIR - whereas the Devils can't get Cap Relief until they declare one of the injured players to be on LTIR (retro-actively, which then makes them compliant in the past!). Lou is hedging putting Rollston or Volchenkov on LTIR - but he will be forced to by the weekend. The NHL is unhappy about it - but they have set the precedent in the past of allowing it .

The Red Wings on the other hand get at least Franzen back on Thursday - so they will be back at full strength.

Bruce
 
put it this way...with all things being equal and you were building a Cup winner, who do you take - Kovalchuk or Hossa?

I take Hossa every time. Sure, Kovalchuk gets you 5-10 more goals a year but Hossa gives you everything and prevents at least that many goals with his two-way play. And Hossa's cap hit is more than $1M less.

Again, I think Kovalchuk is a very good player and great scorer, I just think he is overvalued (as are Gaborik and Nash).

Give me Hossa or Zetterberg over those guys every day of the week.

Metrags said:
Saying the Devils were wrong to pay Kovy big money is hogwash.

He is an unproven winner, then again look at the team he was stuck on.

No one can say that he makes a team worse. He is the only reason the THrashers won anything in the last few years. While he is not a traditional 2-way forward, he is anything but one dimensional.


The devils have the players, who knows why they arent winning right now. I still say they should not have gotten Arnott and Rolston (or at least go for Sykora, Niedermayer, and Stevens as well ....), and they should have found a replacement for Brodeur. But even then, you cant really blame these losses on them either.
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Kovalchuk is well worth the cap hit - I would take him at that any day of the week. You have moved from the arguement that he is the reason for the Devils struggles to saying that he is not as valuable as Hossa - two completely different debates.

If you are going to talk strict comparables - here are a bunch of guys making more than Kovalchuk...
Bouwmeester, Campbell, Drury, Gomez, Vanek, Lecavalier, and Brad Richards - with Briere making about $100k less. Would you rather have one of these guys?

Argue it all you want but the jury on Kovalchuk is going to be out for quite some time - in five years he could be the biggest bargain in the NHL and I would argue that a top 10 forward at under $7mil is a pretty good deal.

gretzky99 said:
put it this way...with all things being equal and you were building a Cup winner, who do you take - Kovalchuk or Hossa?

I take Hossa every time. Sure, Kovalchuk gets you 5-10 more goals a year but Hossa gives you everything and prevents at least that many goals with his two-way play. And Hossa's cap hit is more than $1M less.

Again, I think Kovalchuk is a very good player and great scorer, I just think he is overvalued (as are Gaborik and Nash).

Give me Hossa or Zetterberg over those guys every day of the week.
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my point is not that Kovalchuk is a detrement to NJ but his cap hit is (at least right now) because they couldn't afford him. Also that I do think his cap hit is too high for what he is.
You can't compare his contract to Gomez or Drury. Those deals were signed a few years back before cap space was limited. Most teams spent to their cap right away and overpaid guys. Plus, none of those guys are wingers. Hossa is the closest player to Kovalchuk that was on the open market.
Look at the teams that have won Cups and how they are built and where they spend their money. That is all I am saying. Cup winners don't spend $100M on a sniper - maybe that will change, I don't know.


timber09 said:
Kovalchuk is well worth the cap hit - I would take him at that any day of the week. You have moved from the arguement that he is the reason for the Devils struggles to saying that he is not as valuable as Hossa - two completely different debates.

If you are going to talk strict comparables - here are a bunch of guys making more than Kovalchuk...
Bouwmeester, Campbell, Drury, Gomez, Vanek, Lecavalier, and Brad Richards - with Briere making about $100k less. Would you rather have one of these guys?

Argue it all you want but the jury on Kovalchuk is going to be out for quite some time - in five years he could be the biggest bargain in the NHL and I would argue that a top 10 forward at under $7mil is a pretty good deal.
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And I would argue Kovalchuk isn't a top ten forward. Probably top 10 wing, but definitely not top ten forward.
 
I know that Hossa is a very good 2-way player, but where is the idea of him being a playoff performer coming from???

Other than the one very good round in the 07/08 Pens playoff run, his playoff offense has been underwhelming to say the least. And yet Kovalchuk had 6 points in 5 playoff games and he is a no-show????

Yes I realize that he is not the best option, but if a team balances out his offense with good defense in other areas - it works. You are not going to win without scoring and the old ways of NJ defense was obsolete - it was time to add some scoring. It was also a way of attempting to entice more ticket sales since that is a real issue in NJ.
 
suitman19 said:
I know that Hossa is a very good 2-way player, but where is the idea of him being a playoff performer coming from???

Other than the one very good round in the 07/08 Pens playoff run, his playoff offense has been underwhelming to say the least. And yet Kovalchuk had 6 points in 5 playoff games and he is a no-show????

Yes I realize that he is not the best option, but if a team balances out his offense with good defense in other areas - it works. You are not going to win without scoring and the old ways of NJ defense was obsolete - it was time to add some scoring. It was also a way of attempting to entice more ticket sales since that is a real issue in NJ.
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I don't necessarily disagree with that - just that spending $100M on Kovalchuk was the right move. You only have so much cap room to work with and my opinion is that spending almost $7M on a strictly offensive player is too much. No other team that has won a Cup has done it. It doesn't leave enough room for other spots on the roster that are more important. We are seeing that with NJ. Look at their blue line - it's not very good at all. You could make a case that they don't have a top pairing d-man on their roster.

Plus Parise is due a large contract and unless Brodeur retires they are going to struggle to sign him and stay competitive.
 
And btw, Hossa can have a sub par playoffs and still be a positive player for you. I don't believe you can say the same about Kovalchuk. If he isn't scoring he doesn't give you much else.
 
Elias Devil said:
I laugh every time someones says this. Arnott comes off the book next year and that 4.5 million will go right to Parise. Problem solved.
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you still have to replace the players that leave. yes, you can get someone cheaper than Arnott to fill that spot but it makes your team weaker if you bring in a lesser player.

now maybe NJ has a young guy they can put there that is ready to go - i don't know.

again, it's all about where you put your cap money.
 
gretzky99 said:
You only have so much cap room to work with and my opinion is that spending almost $7M on a strictly offensive player is too much. No other team that has won a Cup has done it.
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Like Chicago with Brian Campbell (over $7mil) last year or Pittsburgh with Gonchar ($5mil) the year before?

Listen - they certainly have some cap issues - that is obvious. And maybe, just maybe, when the signed him they knew that these problems were going to crop up but that the end result a couple of years from now would be well worth the headache they have this year. Next year they will have a bunch of money off the books, will be able to resign Parise and will have a top line in place long term.

There is no way that you can say that they spent too much money on Kovalchuk half a dozen games into a 10 year contract - who knows, you may end up being right, but there is no way to be able to determine that today.
 
timber09 said:
Like Chicago with Brian Campbell (over $7mil) last year or Pittsburgh with Gonchar ($5mil) the year before?

Listen - they certainly have some cap issues - that is obvious. And maybe, just maybe, when the signed him they knew that these problems were going to crop up but that the end result a couple of years from now would be well worth the headache they have this year. Next year they will have a bunch of money off the books, will be able to resign Parise and will have a top line in place long term.

There is no way that you can say that they spent too much money on Kovalchuk half a dozen games into a 10 year contract - who knows, you may end up being right, but there is no way to be able to determine that today.
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yes, exactly like Campbell and Gonchar (although Gonchar @ $5M isn't much of an overpayment), but it's even worse for a winger.

look at Chicago now - they had to move 7 players from their SC winning team because of Campbell's contract. Chicago had a ton of young talent that wasn't getting paid yet - the same can't be said for NJ.

you are right - i can't say that for sure now. i'm only speculating. but i'm speculating based on what other teams have done. no Cup winner has spent that kind of money and cap space on a offensive only sniper.

look at similar guys - Heatley, Gaborik, Nash. they all make Kovalchuk-type money/cap space and their teams lack big time in other roster areas.

SJ has no third or fourth line or depth on defense. NYR has no #1 center and blue line issues. CLM is just a mess. NJ has no depth on the blue line and will lose 1-2 core players this year because they have no room when Rolston comes back. NJ has a one-year window because Parise is still cheap and Brodeur is still there. next year they will lose even more depth if they keep Parise.

i'm saying teams don't have the luxury to spend that much on a guy like Kovalchuk and if they do it they will struggle. there is evidence to prove it. SJ came close last year but their team is much weaker this year. you can win with Kovalchuk if he does what Hossa did and take a deal that allows you to stay competitive. that's what DL was trying to do with Kovalchuk - obviously it didn't work.

NJ may prove the theory wrong - we'll see.
 

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