The Hockey Card Licensing Thread

[jetsman]

While the point is valid, there's a huge difference between video games and cards, in that video games generally have one product per year per company, sometimes 2, whereas a card company will produce multiple products. Thus, the options are still out there for the consumer.

I think the NHL would have been less inclined to have two game companies if, say, EA created one game for regular NHL, one solely featuring legendary players, one solely for international play etc.

Bearing that in mind, if I'm not mistaken didn't McFarlane have an exclusive in the figurine market for a few years?

 

[jetsman]

I guess it's safe to say that the NHLPA's marketing folks don't view cards and games as the proverbial goose and gander eh? In a very flawed "defence" of the PA, it's not as if consistency is one of their strong points, so they probably didn't even bat an eye at the contradiction in the two decisions.

Licensing has always been like that though. McDonald's is the only restaurant that can do NHL/PA hockey cards. Same way that with the deal with Pepsi, Coke can't do hockey cards, and conversely Pepsi has never been able to do Olympic cards.

 

[cards-gotta-go]

While the point is valid, there's a huge difference between video games and cards, in that video games generally have one product per year per company, sometimes 2, whereas a card company will produce multiple products. Thus, the options are still out there for the consumer.

Your point on the 1 product/year vs whatever number it is/year is well taken.

That said, the difference isn't that great... video games and cards are aimed at the same demographic, are they not?

 

[bprice]

My point is not about an exclusive, it is Mr. Jenning's reason for saying how important choice is in a marketplace.

I believe if I can find it, he say's the opposite about an exclusive arrangement.

That's my point.

Brian Price
In The Game

 

[FrankToronto]

While the point is valid, there's a huge difference between video games and cards, in that video games generally have one product per year per company, sometimes 2, whereas a card company will produce multiple products. Thus, the options are still out there for the consumer.

I have to politely disagree. While a video game company may only produce one NHL hockey game, it's competitor is providing another option and people generally choose one over the other to spend their playing time based on what they consider quality attributes of a video game experience.

In the case of cards, while one company may be producing 30 products, there hasn't been an option to purchase a competing product over any of those 30 during the exclusive.

 

[Raffi31]

First off, Happy Holidays to all of you!

I still have no idea how the NHLPA can consider giving Upper Deck an exclusive.
WTF is a card company in California doing getting an exclusive and shutting out a company like ITG owned by a hockey collector and fan favorite Dr. Price?

what does their location have to do with anything? the fact that they were THE big card company of any sport has no bearing?

And the Answer……

Hockey is very important to UD because they lost 1/2 of baseball and all of basketball. It now becomes important for Topps as well since they lost all of football and all of basketball. Hockey is extremely important for us, it's what we live and breathe.
Brian Price
In The Game

Skyfire47: You kind of took my quote out of context and when by itself maybe it was not as clear to you. My point was in questioning how the NHLPA could not even consider a company like ITG, based in Canada, who had been producing cards for them for a number of years and instead just go with UD without giving ITG a chance. Would you? It makes absolutely no sense to at the very least give them a chance.
Who has responded in this thread? ITG or UD? Yes ITG has.
Where are the hockey expos held? California? Nope in Toronto which as we both know is in Canada.
So ask yourself why are they located in Canada? And you’ll realize the answer pretty quickly. Ask yourself why ESPN shows small clips of hockey in the US and usually negative stuff gets most attention, and why TSN in CANADA shows it almost nonstop.
The answer is obvious.
If you are looking for a company to represent your association wouldn't you at the least consider one as obviously focused on your association as you are.
Now ask yourself this……If you are the NHLPA looking out for the players wouldn’t you at the very least take an offer for the dedicated hockey crazed card company in Canada?
I beg to differ in your question and comment and after reading through this thread, I feel a bit validated after hearing how the process seemed to go down. Any logical person with no business background would at least see the possible benefit of negotiating with a company in Canada that "lives and breathes hockey". Heck if they’re offer isn’t good enough that is one thing…………….but shutting them out as I said is just plain stupid and a perfect example of why the NHLPA is in the mess it is in right now.

And UD is doing a fantastic job of working themselves not only out of an exclusive but also out of any sort of NHL agreement with the errors they have been making, and the way they turn their customers off with redemptions and poor service.

If I am Cam Neely and I see my autograph upside down………………and if I am any player and see a card of myself screwed up I am going to think that whoever made it is a bunch of morons that could care less about me. It may seem trivial but these associations are made up of people JUST LIKE YOU AND ME and they have conversations JUST LIKE WE ARE HERE. Sooner or later things will change for the better for the community and that means that there will not be an exclusive. I am looking forward to it.

 

[SkyFire47]

Skyfire47: You kind of took my quote out of context and when by itself maybe it was not as clear to you. My point was in questioning how the NHLPA could not even consider a company like ITG, based in Canada, who had been producing cards for them for a number of years and instead just go with UD without giving ITG a chance. Would you? It makes absolutely no sense to at the very least give them a chance.
Who has responded in this thread? ITG or UD? Yes ITG has.
Where are the hockey expos held? California? Nope in Toronto which as we both know is in Canada.
So ask yourself why are they located in Canada? And you’ll realize the answer pretty quickly. Ask yourself why ESPN shows small clips of hockey in the US and usually negative stuff gets most attention, and why TSN in CANADA shows it almost nonstop.
The answer is obvious.
If you are looking for a company to represent your association wouldn't you at the least consider one as obviously focused on your association as you are.
Now ask yourself this……If you are the NHLPA looking out for the players wouldn’t you at the very least take an offer for the dedicated hockey crazed card company in Canada?
I beg to differ in your question and comment and after reading through this thread, I feel a bit validated after hearing how the process seemed to go down. Any logical person with no business background would at least see the possible benefit of negotiating with a company in Canada that "lives and breathes hockey". Heck if they’re offer isn’t good enough that is one thing…………….but shutting them out as I said is just plain stupid and a perfect example of why the NHLPA is in the mess it is in right now.

i didn't take your words out of context. the merits of UD, at that time, being the giants that they were in the card industry was all that mattered. think of it this way...UD produced cards in all sports, NOT just hockey. they are the bigger company because of that and have more experience.

i posted this earlier in the thread:

ever give a good deal to someone because they've done business with you before? ...a relationship was established and (i'm assuming) UD made an offer. it was good enough and the NHL/PA took it. does it suck? apparently for alot of people. will it happen again? who really knows.

you do decent business with someone long enough, a time may come when you don't always shop around.

And UD is doing a fantastic job of working themselves not only out of an exclusive but also out of any sort of NHL agreement with the errors they have been making, and the way they turn their customers off with redemptions and poor service.

If I am Cam Neely and I see my autograph upside down………………and if I am any player and see a card of myself screwed up I am going to think that whoever made it is a bunch of morons that could care less about me. It may seem trivial but these associations are made up of people JUST LIKE YOU AND ME and they have conversations JUST LIKE WE ARE HERE. Sooner or later things will change for the better for the community and that means that there will not be an exclusive. I am looking forward to it.

UD's errors on cardboard don't really concern the NHL/PA. also, go read other sports forums and you'll see no company is without complaints. UD might be working themselves out of an exclusive, in which case most people here would be thankful, but i doubt any of us want to see UD lose their license. you would be kissing away the biggest names from your breaks and i think the hobby as a whole would suffer from that.

as for Cam Neely, UD's paycheck to him had the signature the right way and also showed they cared to sign him up and pay him. associations like the NHL and PA are made of people who's sole purpose IS NOT cardboard. licensing is an aspect of what they take care of. they have bigger problems to deal with.

 

[Stadium Sports]

Skyfire47: You kind of took my quote out of context and when by itself maybe it was not as clear to you. My point was in questioning how the NHLPA could not even consider a company like ITG, based in Canada, who had been producing cards for them for a number of years and instead just go with UD without giving ITG a chance. Would you? It makes absolutely no sense to at the very least give them a chance.
Who has responded in this thread? ITG or UD? Yes ITG has.
Where are the hockey expos held? California? Nope in Toronto which as we both know is in Canada.
So ask yourself why are they located in Canada? And you’ll realize the answer pretty quickly. Ask yourself why ESPN shows small clips of hockey in the US and usually negative stuff gets most attention, and why TSN in CANADA shows it almost nonstop.
The answer is obvious.
If you are looking for a company to represent your association wouldn't you at the least consider one as obviously focused on your association as you are.
Now ask yourself this……If you are the NHLPA looking out for the players wouldn’t you at the very least take an offer for the dedicated hockey crazed card company in Canada?
I beg to differ in your question and comment and after reading through this thread, I feel a bit validated after hearing how the process seemed to go down. Any logical person with no business background would at least see the possible benefit of negotiating with a company in Canada that "lives and breathes hockey". Heck if they’re offer isn’t good enough that is one thing…………….but shutting them out as I said is just plain stupid and a perfect example of why the NHLPA is in the mess it is in right now.

Is ITG located in Canada?
My Canadian Dealer order forms are sent out from NJ and the cards say "Printed in the USA".
California has just as NHL many teams as Ontario.
Really - what difference does location make?
And UD shows up to the Expo.

I am not saying your overall desire for ITG to get a licence is wrong - I am thinking however that you are taking the wrong path bringing locations into this discussion.

 

[bprice]

Here are a few facts to add to the discussion.

In The Game, Inc. was formed when the NHLPA came to me and asked me to make Be A Player (their flagship brand) after Pinnacle went out of business.

The NHLPA were partners in In The Game, Inc.

They allowed us to increase from two releases in 1998-99 to more than 10 releases in later years, so one would think that they were very satisfied with our business relationship and the hockey cards we made.

Ted Saskin convinced the players to negotiate a "cap" when Bob Goodenough, his boss at the time, was totally against it and was prepared to continue the fight.

Then Saskin had to convince Trevor Linden that the licensing for the PA was going to be looked after if Saskin became the Executive Director. So Saskin did the exclusive Upper Deck and EA Sports deals.

The NHL knew about the EA Sports deal and objected, that's how 2K Sports got in. The NHL did not know about the Upper Deck deal and that's why they licensed us for the next season.

If Saskin cared about the players, he could have gotten 3 million for each of UD and ITG, that would have made 6 million per year and competition for the players' autographs. But he didn't. He just did a closed-door deal with Upper Deck.

Don't misunderstand, Upper Deck did nothing wrong. They made an offer and it was accepted.

What would be wrong is not giving us an opportunity in the future since we have proved to most of the hockey card market that we do belong.

Hope this clears a few things up.

Brian Price
In The Game

PS: Our Design Team, Production Team and Planning Teams are in Canada. They all live and breath hockey as collectors and fans of the game. We no long send our solicitations from New Jersey, that changed almost a year ago.

 

[jetsman]

Brian, if I may ask, what was the licensing situation in the before times (pre-lockout)? How much did you guys pay to each the NHL and the PA, and what conditions, such as # of sets, promotion etc., were there as part of the licensing agreement?

 

[bprice]

I don't think it is appropriate to discuss the exact deal we had with the NHL and NHLPA prior to the lock-out.

In fact, I am not sure that our deal was the same as UD, Topps and Pacific.

What I can say is that we were not limited to the number of products, we limited ourselves based on products with integrity. Don't know about the others.

At one time our license was limited to a certain number of sets but not the license that was not renewed in 2004-05.

We simply got a letter from Saskin saying that our license was not being renewed and thanking us for our previous contribution.

One year later, we received the same type of letter from the NHL.

Hope this helps a bit but I don't think it is professional to discuss the terms of our licenses. The reason the UD license terms are ok to discuss is because the NHLPA made some of the terms public.

Brian Price
In The Game

 

[JSOKOL1626]

Here are a few facts to add to the discussion.

In The Game, Inc. was formed when the NHLPA came to me and asked me to make Be A Player (their flagship brand) after Pinnacle went out of business.

The NHLPA were partners in In The Game, Inc.

They allowed us to increase from two releases in 1998-99 to more than 10 releases in later years, so one would think that they were very satisfied with our business relationship and the hockey cards we made.

Ted Saskin convinced the players to negotiate a "cap" when Bob Goodenough, his boss at the time, was totally against it and was prepared to continue the fight.

Then Saskin had to convince Trevor Linden that the licensing for the PA was going to be looked after if Saskin became the Executive Director. So Saskin did the exclusive Upper Deck and EA Sports deals.

The NHL knew about the EA Sports deal and objected, that's how 2K Sports got in. The NHL did not know about the Upper Deck deal and that's why they licensed us for the next season.

If Saskin cared about the players, he could have gotten 3 million for each of UD and ITG, that would have made 6 million per year and competition for the players' autographs. But he didn't. He just did a closed-door deal with Upper Deck.

Don't misunderstand, Upper Deck did nothing wrong. They made an offer and it was accepted.

What would be wrong is not giving us an opportunity in the future since we have proved to most of the hockey card market that we do belong.

Hope this clears a few things up.

Brian Price
In The Game

PS: Our Design Team, Production Team and Planning Teams are in Canada. They all live and breath hockey as collectors and fans of the game. We no long send our solicitations from New Jersey, that changed almost a year ago.

You keep repeating the same thing over and over throughout this thread. What I'm not hearing from you, and frankly it surprises me, is a plan. You're preaching to the choir here.

Have you spent any time, or money, lobbying key people in the PA? In an earlier thread you appeared unsure as to whom those people may be. Are you taking the time to learn what it will take to be heard and how do get an audience with PA people that make a difference?

With all do respect, it's time to stop complaining about what may or may not have happened 5 years ago. Frankly, I think it's hurting your cause.

If there's to be any discussion about the importance of a company's home country it should focus on marketing outside that country. I couldn't help but notice that only a few American members have commented here, and those comments are mixed. Perhaps because many American collectors support teams that are relative youngsters in the NHL and therefore lack vintage memorabilia. Additionally, ITG prospect cards are fosused on Canadien leagues with limited US exposure. The ITG NJ office was located within driving distance of 5 NHL teams, but it's now closed. It seems that rather than nurture those markets you withdrew from them.

In the business world, if you want to howl like a wolf you must learn to run with the pack. I don't get the sense that is happening here. While i give you a tip of my hat for surviving over these last years without a license I wonder if you trully know what it takes to get another shot. Remember, nice guys finish last.

 

[The Great Zo]

JSOKOL:

 

[SkyFire47]

You keep repeating the same thing over and over throughout this thread. What I'm not hearing from you, and frankly it surprises me, is a plan. You're preaching to the choir here.

Have you spent any time, or money, lobbying key people in the PA? In an earlier thread you appeared unsure as to whom those people may be. Are you taking the time to learn what it will take to be heard and how do get an audience with PA people that make a difference?

With all do respect, it's time to stop complaining about what may or may not have happened 5 years ago. Frankly, I think it's hurting your cause.

If there's to be any discussion about the importance of a company's home country it should focus on marketing outside that country. I couldn't help but notice that only a few American members have commented here, and those comments are mixed. Perhaps because many American collectors support teams that are relative youngsters in the NHL and therefore lack vintage memorabilia. Additionally, ITG prospect cards are fosused on Canadien leagues with limited US exposure. The ITG NJ office was located within driving distance of 5 NHL teams, but it's now closed. It seems that rather than nurture those markets you withdrew from them.

In the business world, if you want to howl like a wolf you must learn to run with the pack. I don't get the sense that is happening here. While i give you a tip of my hat for surviving over these last years without a license I wonder if you trully know what it takes to get another shot. Remember, nice guys finish last.

actions speak louder than words at times. he's here and talking to collectors; that should speak for itself regarding his plan. also, as everyone's noted, ITG is still making products collectors like and are of quality. that alone should be reason enough to apply for a license.

while i commend Dr. Price for coming onto the message boards and joining in these discussions, i'd imagine there's a very fine line between what he can say and what he wants to say. we can speak our minds, Dr. Price has a company to watch out for. also not sure if speaking of his current actions would be in the best interest of the company. as mentioned above, alot has to do with keeping it professional.

 

[JSOKOL1626]

Yes, but that's the whole point. There doesn't seem to be an application process for licenses.

 

[penguinpr]

You keep repeating the same thing over and over throughout this thread. What I'm not hearing from you, and frankly it surprises me, is a plan. You're preaching to the choir here.

Have you spent any time, or money, lobbying key people in the PA? In an earlier thread you appeared unsure as to whom those people may be. Are you taking the time to learn what it will take to be heard and how do get an audience with PA people that make a difference?

With all do respect, it's time to stop complaining about what may or may not have happened 5 years ago. Frankly, I think it's hurting your cause.

If there's to be any discussion about the importance of a company's home country it should focus on marketing outside that country. I couldn't help but notice that only a few American members have commented here, and those comments are mixed. Perhaps because many American collectors support teams that are relative youngsters in the NHL and therefore lack vintage memorabilia. Additionally, ITG prospect cards are fosused on Canadien leagues with limited US exposure. The ITG NJ office was located within driving distance of 5 NHL teams, but it's now closed. It seems that rather than nurture those markets you withdrew from them.

In the business world, if you want to howl like a wolf you must learn to run with the pack. I don't get the sense that is happening here. While i give you a tip of my hat for surviving over these last years without a license I wonder if you trully know what it takes to get another shot. Remember, nice guys finish last.

You do realize that there is probably a lot more going on than Brian is willing to reveal publicly for legal or strategic reasons but at least he's here engaging in a dialogue with collectors... and Andy's response summed up your feelings for ITG in a nutshell. I'm sure others who have followed this thread from the beginning would agree.

 

[JSOKOL1626]

Penguin, I don't have the slightest idea what Brian has going on, nor do you. Nor, do i have feelings one way or the other regarding an ITG license. My earlier comments, if you read them carefully, addressed customer service, not licensing.

 

[penguinpr]

Penguin, I don't have the slightest idea what Brian has going on, nor do you. Nor, do i have feelings one way or the other regarding an ITG license. My earlier comments, if you read them carefully, addressed customer service, not licensing.

No, I suppose I don't know what is truly going on and neither does anyone on here but Dr. Price.

(The remainder of this post was edited by the poster as it is the holiday season and I'm being a little too snarky. However, it referenced an axe, Jeff Hackett and a befouled cereal bowl.)

 

[hawkeenut]

Wow, that took a long time to read. If all the post were deleted on issues not even mentioned in the op's thread, I would have been done quite a while ago.
It seems that it doesn't matter what the truths are, if anyone even knows what they are, you are not going to change anyones opinion on ITG or UD.
I see a couple guys out hear that say they aren't anti ITG but just read your own post and be unbiased about it.
As for myself I'd like to see more products, lose the exclusive already.
Here is the problem as I see it and has been stated by a few before.
A company that cuts it's production down by 50%(UD), not only in hockey but baseball and basketball and MMA will not be able to function financially. That being said if UD can't function and they stop doing hockey or someone else gets an exclusive, what happens to UD exclusive player autos(gretz, Sid, Yzerman, Stamkos)??
Can someone else sign them??
Also if ITG gets a license can they produced an unlicensed product like H&P??
There are a lot of questions that nobody really knows the answers until everyone sits down to discuss these issues.
As a business man I wouldn't say UD did anything wrong in their negotiations with NHLPA, it was actually brilliant. On the other hand what the NHLPA did was not in the best interest of the players at last financially. They should have opened up the floor to the highest bidder and let the best company win. Then the players would have receved the most amount of money if they indeed wanted togo with an exclusive deal. Usually at this level it is who knows who or who sleeps with who.
In my opinion I think the exclusive will be extended as the NHLPA have bigger fish to fry and when you think 5 million dollars/year divided by the # of players in the league it really is a small splash for these guys. We can only hope the will extend it only 1 year so they can get their crap together and have proper meetings to get this fixed properly. Unless the get a new leader soon!!! LET US PRAYER!!! Dan

 

[Raffi31]

i didn't take your words out of context. the merits of UD, at that time, being the giants that they were in the card industry was all that mattered. think of it this way...UD produced cards in all sports, NOT just hockey. they are the bigger company because of that and have more experience.

i posted this earlier in the thread:



you do decent business with someone long enough, a time may come when you don't always shop around.




UD's errors on cardboard don't really concern the NHL/PA. also, go read other sports forums and you'll see no company is without complaints. UD might be working themselves out of an exclusive, in which case most people here would be thankful, but i doubt any of us want to see UD lose their license. you would be kissing away the biggest names from your breaks and i think the hobby as a whole would suffer from that.

as for Cam Neely, UD's paycheck to him had the signature the right way and also showed they cared to sign him up and pay him. associations like the NHL and PA are made of people who's sole purpose IS NOT cardboard. licensing is an aspect of what they take care of. they have bigger problems to deal with.

In regard to your first 2 responses....you did take my words out of context and I still don't agree with you. You don't neglect your duties of making the players more money with already proven and reputable businesses no matter how much you love the person on the other side of the table. That is just a fantasy. I'm not going to rehash why other companies didn't get a chance to negotiate because it has been done already. But I can say that it had nothing to do with them being so overjoyed with Upper Deck's work that they just had to take less money for the NHLPA to sign with just UD. Ludicrous if you believe what you wrote.

As for your last paragraph or 2, I actually do agree with you. No way do I want to see Upper Deck lose their license. I like their cards and love hockey so personally the more the merrier. An exclusive in this hobby is ridiculous and should never have happened. Let companies like ITG and Topps and whoever else make their cards! And unfortunately you are also probably correct in saying that they have more important things to worry about and that players are just happy to get paid. I don't disagree. I think I probably exaggerated the fact that an error on a card would be a sole reason that an exclusive wouldn't be reached.

Stadium Sports: Maybe I didn't make my point clear. I am not saying location is not the factor in who should make cards.
I am saying that if someone who works for the NHLPA and has the players interests as their first and main priority as they should, then there is no way that a company in California gets an exclusive before looking around.
I don't know you at all but can tell by the fact that you were able to type and respond in this thread that you have some intelligence. So I ask you.
If you were working for the NHLPA and you had power enough by yourself to negotiate the hockey card contracts would you settle for an exclusive contract from Upper Deck...a company in California even though you knew that ITG (as an example of another company) that was located in Canada, produced solely hockey cards, had worked well with you in the past, and was extremely passionate about hockey was out there and wanted to make cards again? Or would you tell UD you'd get back to them, talk with other companies, realize that you could make more money for the NHLPA by not signing an exclusive? I know what just about every single person on this board would do. .......including yourself. I am confident that unless there was some sort of incentive in it for you personally that you would never sign an exclusive without listening to other companies. You can argue that if you want but that was my point of location. That was why I pointed out differences in ESPN and TSN in terms of hockey coverage and also why I pointed out where the Hockey Expo was located and not whose businesses were there. Because I was trying to show that when there is an established company that specialized in hockey not even getting negotiated with that there is something wrong.
I am not pro ITG or anti UD by any means. (although if you must know H&P is my favorite set). I am a hockey fan, will always buy hockey cards no matter who makes them. But it pisses me off how the exclusive went down and I have never liked it or wanted it and can never figure out why it happened.
Thanks to this thread I now know. And based on recent NHLPA events it is far from surprising. Hopefully if they ever get their association back in working order things in the hockey card industry can get sorted out.