Patch forger... caught! gomaz would be proud ;)

[THERUSSIANRCKT]

Also Lee....if you are buying counterfeit DVD's on the corner, and you are able to prove it to the movie company, and the seller is still around...you can bet charges would be laid. I don't think anyone here is trying to get anything out of Upper Deck as far as compensation goes. They just want them to make the obvious steps needed to help protect the integrity of the business. As an example...DVD's are harder to copy now, as they are usually incripted (or something like that so...I'm to computer stupid to figure it out...lol).

This is true...but the reason - because the piracy cut into the profits of the studios. It was not until it was very widespread and had great negative impact on their bottom line, that they spent the money on technology to combat the problem. Intially, they just went after the criminals and filed charges. There are acceptable losses in most businesses. If you own a store and you lose $200 a year due to shoplifting, do you spend 10k on surveillance equipment? Probably not. If patch faking does have a negative impact on UD revenues, is it just an immaterial loss? It is a hobby to us...a business to them. I try to see both sides. As Mark always tells me - I am Switzerland

 

[losman#99]

Luckily then, for both of us, this is the only area of the hobby that stinks. You will be hard-pressed to find a post where I complain about redemptions or crappy box breaks. I also love this hobby. I enjoy it, and the friends I have made through it, immensely.

Unfortunately, this flaw negatively impacts the integrity of our collections and the hobby as a whole. And to me, that is worth speaking up for.

This comment sums it up for me. Like many of you I have hundreds of patch cards in my pc and today after reading this I think to myself how much of it could be fake and I get sick to my stomach.

 

[gomaz]

If patch faking does have a negative impact on UD revenues, is it just an immaterial loss?

Good question. I think that diminishing revenues related to this issue will become material very quickly.

I know half a dozen heavy spenders who are done with UD until this is fixed. And that's just who I know. Word on this is spreading like wildfire.

 

[gomaz]

[/B]

This comment sums it up for me. Like many of you I have hundreds of patch cards in my pc and today after reading this I think to myself how much of it could be fake and I get sick to my stomach.

You are far from alone. Kind of discouraging, isn't it?

 

[Raffi31]

Can someone PM me with info on his set up at the Toronto Expo?

Also, regarding Upper Deck's response...............hmmmm..........trying to find the right way to say this. While I think it is great they responded I am not sure that the response given is going to help out their side of things much. There has to be a way to combat this. Not only to stop it from happening, but also to show they care. I bet I could randomly pull 3 names of Hobbyinsider members and within a week have numerous ways to attempt to combat this type of alteration. And if it becomes expensive then MAKE LESS jersey cards!! Man they are are selling for $2 anyway so not only would collectors be guaranteed an authentic piece of jersey, but it would also hold more value. It's corny but gotta say it "Where there's a will, there's a way" and if Upper Deck really wanted to do something to make their cards tougher to alter, they would be able to. If not, they shouldn't be in business.

On a side note, I wonder how many boxes this guy opened at the Upper Deck booth. If everyone knows him, I wonder if Karvin does too. It would be a cute photo to see him on line at the Upper Deck booth in the background of an HI booth photo.....the irony.

 

[deankal]

It's a little alerting that a few of you still think UD shouldn't really have anything to do with this considering all this "fake patching dilemma" took place in the secondary market. I mean you make great valid points but there has to be a part of you that thinks something should be done.....no?

Are they thinking about the hobby in general or are they just thinking that this fake patching stuff doesn't really concern me because I don't collect patches?

I seem to be more worried for the hobbyists in general that spend their hard earned money on packs, boxes, singles, cases, whether it be off the shelf at a store or directly thru Upper Deck or just trading with someone. It irks me that someone selling fakes of this magnitude gets the easy way out....
Who knows how many actually went on thru ebay.....private sales....trades.....local shows....Expos....and so on. But what I do know is that ALOT of people were affected by this guy!!!

To me it seems that it affects everyone in a very serious manner. It affects the wax busters who buy a ton of cases because where they used to get hundreds or even thousands of dollars for NICE singles out of their breaks their getting alot less because people are disputing their patches. Does the local hobby store who really is doing it for the love of the hobby rather than the buck made....stay in business after the local wax addicts aren't breaking as much? Like Jeremy said I can alno same quite a few HUGE wax breakers around here that have stopped completely due to reasons other than "They don't have the money". Does the collector who's into doing nice sets with patches or the collector who would like to add a nice cards to his player collection get kicked in the junk because of a fake patch.....absolutely!! Even the person who just wants a nice limited logo card of Iginla gets affected here? It seems to me it affects EVERYONE.......

It's negatively impacting the hobby from TOP to BOTTOM and I doubt you can convince me otherwise. Why is Upper Deck not producing as much anymore....of course it has to do with the economy but it also has to do with alot of people losing faith in Upper Deck!!

I'm not saying they have to do anything here, but I'm really hoping the do!!! I think making an example out of someone who can be linked to not hundreds maybe thousands of FAKE cards is the right way to go here!! It'll give them alot of credibility around these parts and may be just the right thing to do. Eventually they will have to address it, like Lee said about holograms on sealed boxes and all that stuff.....but the longer they keep turning a blind eye towards this matter, the worse it may hurt them in the future!!

You know what the scary part here is guys..... That alot of people know this guy and have often mentioned that he seemed like a great guy involved in the hobby. There's no way anyone can tell who's doing this sort of thing nowadays. As reputable the person you're dealing with may be he might of got scammed as well.....That's the point here!!

Here's to keeping a tiny bit hope that Upper Deck pull off something here.....

 

[mrconie]

This is why I will record my 08-09 The Cup breaks.

100% authentic over here!

 

[richie.rocket.cards]

Some very interesting points here. Really great work here by the members involved in catching this guy. I'm not a patch collector whatsoever, but I have sure been following these types of news and appreciate efforts like gomaz's image archive in attempts to deter future problems.

I also agree with most that it is nice to see UD post a reply here. They are indirectly related to the problem, but I also understand that steps towards improving the situation will be costly...what did he say? Inserting ink bombs or something like that? Maybe they can also put a GPS signal on the patch so they know where it is relative to the actual cardboard.

All kidding aside, it is true that any alterations to their current methods will require money. Some say image archiving might be good, but where to store all the images? There are lots of cards. And seriously, you can't just archive Stamkos, Toews, and Kane. High-end is such a loose term...Versteeg went from no-name crap rookie to case-break rookie (albeit he doesnt' have a patch but you get the idea)...you have to do 'every' patch card produced to keep it consistent. Those are a lot of images.

I thought about perhaps storing the image on the COA, so that UD doesn't actually have to store anything...it's already on the card. But according to UD, they dont' want to 'handle' the cards. gomaz is right though...the camera doesn't have to fricken touch the card.

The other day, I was taking apart some damaged jersey cards to make a custom. The glue was so tough to get off that I ended up just including the cardboard in my custom, without bothering to remove the swatch from it. I can't say exactly that this is reflexive of a patch, but I dont' think it's a 'glue' problem?

Hey UD, here's one: Why dont' you get rid of that Artifacts division producing the ten billion parallels and use those funds for a patch-fake solution? Better yet, why dont' you buy the flailing Beckett enterprise, and just grade all your cards like they do in ITG Ultimate? Nobody will ever be able to even 'feel' the patch again. =)

 

[Chestmurdock]

I was hesitant to even comment on this topic because I was always told to not come to the table with a problem without a potential solution in mind...and I do not have one. There will always be people out there doing this type of thing. A solution will be put in place and then the creeps will find a way around the solution.

According to many people in this thread, ITG has apparently already found a solution to this particular problem by using enough/better glue and affixing the patch so that it can't be removed without damaging the card.

 

[No No No.....The other Steve]

Why doesn't UD use a better patch identifying system on the back of the card. This is an example but try and hang with me here

1 jersey has 1 large emblem (good for x# of swatches) 2 shoulder patches (good for x# of swatches) Number (or numbers) (good for x# of swatches) Nameplate which obviously changes (good for x# of swatches). They have a rough idea of how many patches come from each jersey is what I am saying here.

Why not when producing the cards have the COA on the back state emblem, shoulder, number etc. They know roughly how many of each are there from each jersey and the number of jersey's required for the print run. Break it down on the COA's thus those plain white patches from names and numbers won't become 20 colour emblem patches.

Of course you would have to employ people who can tell the difference between a plain white swatch and a 20 colour emblem swatch which you wouldn't think is too difficult but we've seen upside down Gretzky auto's so who knows.

UD try and get back to having a little more mom and pop mentality and I bet it would make your profits rise by caring just a little bit more.

 

[G $MONEY$]

i feel there is more Ebay Seller's like this,.

This was just one small fish.... in a big ocean.

Im just really shocked that people are just now knowing of this problem. Patch faking has been going since at least 2003 (that i know of), probably a lot earlier.

 

[G $MONEY$]

I posted this on another Baseball card board, that may not know of ITG as we do..

For this to stop, UD is gonna have to go the route of In The Game. In The Game has been using BGS encapsulation, for a number of years, with one of their high end products called Ultimate memorabilia.

ITG's other high-end product, Superlative, comes out of the pack in a top loader with a company seal over the top loader. This is definitely keeping their products from being tampered with.

 

[jibron86]

hi there

i thought that Bergeron The Cup LL looked familiar but i did not know it was fake. Thanks for posting this i did not know about this guy.

thanks johnnaseri

 

[THERUSSIANRCKT]

Having thought about this way too much last night, I have come to the conclusion that the only way to completely solve the problem is a photo archive. Anything else will not be a solution, but only a deterrent.

Super Super Glue...I believe they will find a way to deal with it.

Slabbing the cards in BGS holders...Why does Beckett have a graded card lookup on their web site? If those cases are tamperproof or cannot be manufactured by someone else, why do we need a database where we enter a serial number to verify that the card in the slab matches the serial number on the label? They are just plastic holders with a label. Personally, I cannot stand cards in slabs. They are a pain to store and you can only view your card through plastic.

Cards in top loaders with sticker seals...not so tamperproof.

The only ABSOLUTE GUARANTEE for us to know if a patch card has been altered is to have an image library to reference. You can super glue or slab all you want - that would give me no guarantee. If the image library is not feasible for UD, then I would prefer nothing. Anything less would serve little purpose and only add to the cost of the product.

 

[HawksFan67]

How about this idea.

We all have seen the Visa/MasterCard credit cards that have the owners picture on the front. You use the card at the store and all the clerk has to do is look at your card to see if the picture is really you, right?


Now follow me here. If UD were to put a small picture of the patch that is "in the card" on the back of the card, all someone would have to do is "flip the card over to see if the patch matches the picture. There is no way that someone could swap patches anymore.

Problem solved!

 

[dacrib]

This is the first time I can actually say this but.... Thank god most of my patch cards are only one or two colors.

 

[Hejdukfan23]

How about this idea.

We all have seen the Visa/MasterCard credit cards that have the owners picture on the front. You use the card at the store and all the clerk has to do is look at your card to see if the picture is really you, right?


Now follow me here. If UD were to put a small picture of the patch that is "in the card" on the back of the card, all someone would have to do is "flip the card over to see if the patch matches the picture. There is no way that someone could swap patches anymore.

Problem solved!

Best idea yet, I have thought about that same idea since this thread was started. If you think a card in an auction is fake, ask them for a scan of the back of the card. In the immortal words of Johnny Cockran "If the patches dont fit, you must not bid" - ok that was really bad:banned:

 

[quincy]

While that sounds like a good idea, the execution is likely to be problematic.

 

[MMarch]

While that sounds like a good idea, the execution is likely to be problematic.

Amen to that. Not trying to stir up a hornets nest, but you are talking about a company that has shown they cannot get the right autograph on a card, they put the autographs on upside down, they use the wrong jersey or patch piece, yet you think they can execute an extra step up scanning the piece and getting it on the appropriate card? We know the QC is already, can you imagine if they tried to automate this process and got off by one or two pieces? They could have thousands of cards with the wrong patch pieces pictured on the back.

 

[THERUSSIANRCKT]

While that sounds like a good idea, the execution is likely to be problematic.

I wish I knew more about how the cards were actually assembled. I always assumed that those super thick patch cards are two pieces (a front and a back). If that is the case, I don't see how it is doable. Even if there is a middle layer where the patch is affixed...you would have to affix the patch, slap on the face of the card, image that, send the backs of the card to production, then match the face of the card to the back of the card that contains the image of the front of the card. Then we will most definitely have mismatched fronts/backs of cards.