Patch forger... caught! gomaz would be proud ;)

kami said:
How ironic is it that majority of the posts AO57 has are on threads about fake patches...He gives his input as if he knows what he is doing, wait he does, or he did. LOL
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he's even replied to threads backing up his own work....see toews patches in question in one of his last posts...
 
gocarlin said:
Just wanted to chime in quickly here as Bruce shared this post with me. I won't be able to go back and forth on this so I apologize, but just wanted to at least explain our position on it and answer some questions that came up.

When we see situations like this, we look at legal action we can take. If we believe there is a case we usually will go after them on copyright infringement. They have changed our product where we authenticate a game-used swatch is used and they have changed it. For a variety of reasons, we don't comment on cases filed and what happens to people we go after, but we certainly do not turn a blind eye to it. I shared this thread with our legal team and they are reviewing.

I also shared the thread with our head of creative who ended up coming in my office shortly after I sent it over to discuss this. He's a pretty busy guy, but he came over because he takes it very seriously. He shared that we continue to look at ways to deter this practice of changing swatches out. We have looked at adding die-packs, stitching the swatch to the card, adding microfibers to the card and even sealing the edges, but the costs tied to these are pretty extreme to say the least. We discussed it and I'm of the belief these extra costs are not worth putting in because ultimately, you will end up paying for some of that.

We have taken preventative action and made scans before, but that too is very difficult as the timing on everything is so tight and counts need to be taken anytime you move cards. Additionally, you do not want to risk damaging the cards during that process either. We want to limit the handling of higher-end cards like this as much as possible. It sounds so easy, but when you do it, you realize what a big deal it is to pull off.

It’s tough, as you know where there is money to be made there are always those who are looking to take advantage. These people just care about the fast buck and after they’ve been kicked off e-bay, message boards and threatened with legal action, they pop up again under a different name. In my opinion they are like cockroaches. Luckily there are more of us than there are of them to shine a light on what they do. So on behalf of Upper Deck and myself as a sports card afficianado, thank you for any and all of your efforts to deter this practice and make examples of these people.

Chris
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Okay then, keep on letting it happen. And watch your business dissipate. Its been three years since you've known about this, yet you continue to look at ways to stop it? Come on.....I hate to do it but ya know....man on the moon and all...

If my company had a threat out there like this, you can bet your last legitimate patch card that our executive would nip it in the bud to protect all of our stakeholders, especially our clients!

Upper Deck customers are already spending hundreds of dollars on packs of cards. The cost of developing the appropriate technology and/or assembly process can be amortized over several years, multiple sports and dozens of brands, such that you don't need to double the pack price in the year of the cash outlay.

The fact that UD doesn't recognize this, leads me to believe that there is a cash flow crisis at Upper Deck and I question their status as a going concern. At least this theory explains the shortsightedness that UD displays (i.e., there may not be a long-term).

I sure am glad I'm not a shareholder.

By the way, the card handling argument is weak! First show that you can package ANY release without damage to a significant amount of cards and then perhaps you can use that as a reason for not taking photos. Heck, The Cup is hand packed! Take a friggin picture. Last I checked, the camera doesn't have to touch the card.

And thank your head of creative for me for taking time out of his busy schedule to walk over to your office. That sure was going above and beyond :rolleyes:

The more I read the UD response, the more I laugh at how little they really care about the collector.

Collector's choice?...that is becoming a thing of the past....
 
gomaz said:
Okay then, keep on letting it happen. And watch your business dissipate. Its been three years since you've known about this, yet you continue to look at ways to stop it? Come on.....I hate to do it but ya know....man on the moon and all...

If my company had a threat out there like this, you can bet your last legitimate patch card that our executive would nip it in the bud to protect all of our stakeholders, especially our clients!

Upper Deck customers are already spending hundreds of dollars on packs of cards. The cost of developing the appropriate technology and/or assembly process can be amortized over several years, multiple sports and dozens of brands, such that you don't need to double the pack price in the year of the cash outlay.

The fact that UD doesn't recognize this, leads me to believe that there is a cash flow crisis at Upper Deck and I question their status as a going concern. At least this theory explains the shortsightedness that UD displays (i.e., there may not be a long-term).

I sure am glad I'm not a shareholder.

By the way, the card handling argument is weak! First show that you can package ANY release without damage to a significant amount of cards and then perhaps you can use that as a reason for not taking photos. Heck, The Cup is hand packed! Take a friggin picture. Last I checked, the camera doesn't have to touch the card.

And thank your head of creative for me for taking time out of his busy schedule to walk over to your office. That sure was going above and beyond :rolleyes:

The more I read the UD response, the more I laugh at how little they really care about the collector.

Collector's choice?...that is becoming a thing of the past....
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Amen brother! AMEN.
 
i agree 199% with Gomaz UD lost my $50,000 a year in sales already. I'm not a super roller diamond club member, but even they have been shafted lately, not to mention that program only makes the mid to smaller guys feel less appreciated. UD you have alienated your customers and shafted so many people with your laughable redemption program its amazing your not bankrupt, and to Mr. Carlin the part about coming to your office like its a huge deal further shows your pompus indifference to this hobby, i hope the nhl strips your exclusive and your last and only profitible market (HOCKEY) decides to leave your company burried where it belongs.



As for the patch faker, nothing is ever done, but at least members here won't become a victim, so thanks for the heads up.
 
My turn! My turn!

I think UD responding is a nice step in the right direction but there's a lot more steps that need to be taken.

I understand Bruce's reservations in naming the persons HI username but a lot of others could have and should have named them sooner. All you had to do was say something like "that ebay id is so-and-so on HI", you're not accusing them of anything if you did that.

To the people who have started turning this thread in to a step by step guide in to faking patches and how to do it more effectively, give your heads a shake. 9 pages of members expressing their disgust and somewhere you get the idea to start posting ways of faking patches and then to add to that you toss in some extra points on what they should do, like use more glue, to help prevent them from being detectied. I'm sure it was well intended and I'm sure in hind-sight you'll realize what a silly thing this was to do.

Final comment, if this guys daddy is so well off then he can probably afford really good health care for his kid, draw your own conclusions.
 
Gomaz is the Zen master of cost rationalization. (And you may take that as the compliment it was intended to be :D )

While I appreciate Chris' time to respond formally on the part of UD, situations like this one are fairly loud calls to action. Yes, there's costs. As Jeremy mentioned - these can be amortized. And consider the downstream benefits to be had: if there is faith in the swatches on patch cards, secondary market values improve - and in turn are reflected in better wax sales. Is that not to UD's advantage?

I also agree with the statements re: ITG patch cards. Without serial numbering, it's fairly hard to prove that a card was altered without evidence of damage. That said....ITG also tends to have better swatches on average, so the necessity isn't as compelling.
 
hi there .

wow just finished reading all the posts , i'm so happy i did not win the weber cup card as i bid on it , would have been realy upset to find out it was fake , as for upper deck this will hert them as i'm sending this to all my collecting friends not on hobby insider , it puts a serious damper on collecting nice patches now as i will always wonder if they are real or fake now .

thanks for all the work don't it takes a lot of time to find proof of this work .

thanks

jason
 
I feel terrible for all those deceived by this "crook".

between Pack searchers and patch factories I just tend to steer away from ebay !
 
Pretty shocked to hear who the HI member was. Don't think I have ever dealt with him but have definately heard of him and was surprised.

Props to Chris Carlin for responding but Upper Deck really needs to do something to fix this. All the patch faking is getting really rediculous and is going to do nothing but damaged to hobby in the long run. If Upper Deck doesn't see this then there is more wrong with that company than we all think.

Time to wake up and take action head hanchos at Upper Deck.
 
I hate to post this cause I try to remain mature.. but the comments about UD..and the diamond club and levels of members...

Come on , seriously, what does that have to do with the issue at hand?

There are quite a few DC members here , I for one being one, I in no way hold UD or ITG or Topps or Donruss accountable for any of these idjits actions.

They are committing a pre-meditated crime. Sure we can easily blame the source and Im sure there are some very effective ideas to prevent counterfeiting. On the same side the enforcement officer could handle this fraud/forgery situation with more of a sense of deterrent and urgency!

There is no real solution to this problem, if someone goes to such lengths to pull the wool over our collective eyes, for Money, that we are eager to spend, then there is no solution!
 
well...i just happend to finish reading the book "Card Sharks" (great book) and now see this response by Mr. Carlin...thanks for responding Chris but this has really put the nail in the UDs coffin for me...i will not buy anymore new product of UD...
 
shortstopguy12 said:
Think you will see him at another one;)...... I wonder what he will do with the rest of his "inventory".....
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Triple B said:
I guess his days at the Toronto Card Show and the Expo are now over...
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LOLerskates!! But in all honesty, I always did find something a little off/sketchy about him...unfortunately I guess I was right.
 
oasis said:
Sure we can easily blame the source and Im sure there are some very effective ideas to prevent counterfeiting.
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Although some are doing exactly that, there does have to be a measure of responsibility from the manufacturer to deter such fakery. It undermines confidence in their product. Patch archives like Gomaz's are one way to combat the problem.
 
I think it's safe to say if this guy DOES show up at another card show, the many detectives on HI will make sure no one buys from his table.
 
Regarding the manufacturer's responsibility, I challenge any of you to take apart an ITG memorabilia card (except for the Super Sized Pads, because I collect those) and see what they are made of.

I tried that two years ago with a Noah Welch jersey card (of which there are now 99 copies) and whatever ungodly substance they use to stick the memorabilia to the card is still on my fingers to some microscopic degree. If you try to take the swatch out, you pretty much demolish the card.

Dear UD, contact 3M and see what magic crap they have for you to use on your cards. Shouldn't cost too much and not enough to jack prices on people.
 

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