Patch forger... caught! gomaz would be proud ;)

Triple B said:
Regarding the manufacturer's responsibility, I challenge any of you to take apart an ITG memorabilia card (except for the Super Sized Pads, because I collect those) and see what they are made of.

I tried that two years ago with a Noah Welch jersey card (of which there are now 99 copies) and whatever ungodly substance they use to stick the memorabilia to the card is still on my fingers to some microscopic degree. If you try to take the swatch out, you pretty much demolish the card.

Dear UD, contact 3M and see what magic crap they have for you to use on your cards. Shouldn't cost too much and not enough to jack prices on people.
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HEY! I collect Noah Welch, you're driving up the value by destroying his cards, now it's worth $1.03.

I think things like archives are A step but the only full-proof step is in the hands of the manufacturer, A. Design a card that can't be tampered with in any way and/or B. Document every card you produce at the point of production.
 
I bought a nice Horton /25 from this #%)&!. Thought it was too good to be true.

I'd also like to know what table he was at.

UD, Canada Post, RCMP, etc.. won't put two minutes or two dollars into pursuing this matter legally.

I believe a little more investigation is required, beyond the cards.
 
Got to say Nice job,, Bruce,, as an Ebay buyer,, i feel there is more Ebay Seller's like this,, but they use unumbered card and jersey sheet cards , using card sheet and cutting their sheet to sell one buy one,, also them they should be caught ...
 
quincy said:
Actually, considering he's selling the cards on false pretenses - fraud is a probable charge. Wire fraud. Fraud over $1000. Etc.

They may have bigger fish on the go, but that doesn't mean it's carte blanche for smaller scammers to get away with it.
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Too be honest, there may be more teeth to a counterfeiting/copyright infringement charge in Canada than the US notion of mail/wire fraud.

I'd think that the best bet would be the NHLPA/NHL/UD suing the seller for the tort of misappropriation of personality. (Essentially, the argument would be that the seller is making Trading Cards in his basement without the licence to use the images/logos/names of the NHLPA/NHL/UD).
 
Upper Deck has done things in the past to at least hinder some unscrupulous activity.

Before UD came on the scene, there was rampant card reproduction. UD's answer was the hologram affixed to the back of every card.

There were issues with pack searching because most of the packs were just wax sealed. UD came out with the foil pack.

Then there was the searching and resealing of boxes. UD put a seal on their boxes, shrink wrapped them, and placed a holographic sticker on each box.

If Chris Carlin says the problem is of concern to UD and they are working toward a solution, I have faith in that statement because UD has a history of trying to find solutions to these types of problems.

To assert UD does not care about this problem, makes absolutely no sense to me. UD is not in the business of selling single cards. At this point, they have done everything they can to at least protect the integrity of an unopened box of cards. Of course, they have concern about what happens on the secondary market. It is not rocket science. If collectors are hesitant to buy singles because they question the authenticity, then the dealers who sell those singles will no longer buy product and then there is no need for UD to continue production.

Just because Chris Carlin does not come on this board and report on a daily basis, does not mean there is no action on their part.

If I want to buy a movie on DVD, then I go to a reputable place of business and purchase it. If I go to some guy with a table set up on the street to buy it, then I get what I get. I don't call Paramount and ask them how they could let someone make a fake DVD. It is in their best interests to combat piracy because it is lost revenue for them - but I am not sure their responsibility is to me because I paid $10 for a DVD on a street corner.

I was hesitant to even comment on this topic because I was always told to not come to the table with a problem without a potential solution in mind...and I do not have one. There will always be people out there doing this type of thing. A solution will be put in place and then the creeps will find a way around the solution.

If UD does not come up with at least a temporary solution with the release of The Cup this year, I think we will see something in place with the release of the new products for 2009-10. I hope so anyway.
 
THERUSSIANRCKT said:
Upper Deck has done things in the past to at least hinder some unscrupulous activity.

Before UD came on the scene, there was rampant card reproduction. UD's answer was the hologram affixed to the back of every card.

There were issues with pack searching because most of the packs were just wax sealed. UD came out with the foil pack.

Then there was the searching and resealing of boxes. UD put a seal on their boxes, shrink wrapped them, and placed a holographic sticker on each box.

If Chris Carlin says the problem is of concern to UD and they are working toward a solution, I have faith in that statement because UD has a history of trying to find solutions to these types of problems.

To assert UD does not care about this problem, makes absolutely no sense to me. UD is not in the business of selling single cards. At this point, they have done everything they can to at least protect the integrity of an unopened box of cards. Of course, they have concern about what happens on the secondary market. It is not rocket science. If collectors are hesitant to buy singles because they question the authenticity, then the dealers who sell those singles will no longer buy product and then there is no need for UD to continue production.

Just because Chris Carlin does not come on this board and report on a daily basis, does not mean there is no action on their part.

If I want to buy a movie on DVD, then I go to a reputable place of business and purchase it. If I go to some guy with a table set up on the street to buy it, then I get what I get. I don't call Paramount and ask them how they could let someone make a fake DVD. It is in their best interests to combat piracy because it is lost revenue for them - but I am not sure their responsibility is to me because I paid $10 for a DVD on a street corner.

I was hesitant to even comment on this topic because I was always told to not come to the table with a problem without a potential solution in mind...and I do not have one. There will always be people out there doing this type of thing. A solution will be put in place and then the creeps will find a way around the solution.

If UD does not come up with at least a temporary solution with the release of The Cup this year, I think we will see something in place with the release of the new products for 2009-10. I hope so anyway.
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Lee, they've gotten to you...and you don't even know it.
 
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THERUSSIANRCKT said:
If I want to buy a movie on DVD, then I go to a reputable place of business and purchase it. If I go to some guy with a table set up on the street to buy it, then I get what I get. I don't call Paramount and ask them how they could let someone make a fake DVD. It is in their best interests to combat piracy because it is lost revenue for them - but I am not sure their responsibility is to me because I paid $10 for a DVD on a street corner.
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Smart analogy. To extend it a little further: The problem comes not from you complaining to Paramount that you got taken for a crappy pirated DVD. It comes from the pirated DVDs being cheaper and more widely available than the genuine article, the risk being that they could find their way into the mainstream and supplant the licensed product - fakes being sold in major stores, resulting in not only lost revenue immediately, but a humungous overall impact to faith in the industry. To that end, they employ a variety of anti-piracy measures.

In the same vein, you correctly pointed out that the lost faith in exceptional patches hurts the secondary market first - but that inevitably works its way upstream to the waxbusters: They're less able to get good return on their singles, which means they open less wax.

I don't think it's unreasonable to place some onus on UD to find deterrences against patch fakery. Some good partial solutions have already been offered here - such as archives and glue. It's to UD's interest to find a solution. However, it rings hollow to state that the specific solutions that they've investigated aren't cost effective, particularly in light of Jeremy's comments.

As a last remark for the night, consider: Let's even say that UD does implement some good measures. There will always be someone looking for ways around them. It is the nature of people.
 
Sure UD revolutionized the hobby with the hologram. That was a good thing. Is crazy glue really going to drive up their costs that much? I think not.

Pirating DVD's that sell for $10 when the authentic ones sell for $15 is very different from taking an original limited edition sports card and augmenting it.
 
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gomaz said:
Yeah, wipe that.
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thank you for editing that. i wasn't sure if your remark was worth answering despite the resounding No i was going to give.

and i like Lee's argument because there's no negativity. this is a hobby; i'm involved because i like it. i get that others are more involved and that's great but if i get to the point where i get negative about it and start to criticize every facet of the hobby, i'd probably be out. those who want to look for the flaws will always find them.
 
Although I do agree in principle as to what Lee says, it's not like today was the first time we experienced patch forgers. They have been around for YEARS, and to say that Upper Deck didn't realize this is crazy. If they have actually nailed someone for doing this in the past, I'm guessing that SOMEONE here would have heard something and chimed in by now.

It also make no sense to me why they would keep an investigation like this "private". Wouldn't you want people to know that it is a serious offense and to expect to be dealt with in a sevre manner? The only way we will ever know if anything happened to this seller (which I would bet is nothing) is if one of his buddies from here lets us know.

Also Lee....if you are buying counterfeit DVD's on the corner, and you are able to prove it to the movie company, and the seller is still around...you can bet charges would be laid. I don't think anyone here is trying to get anything out of Upper Deck as far as compensation goes. They just want them to make the obvious steps needed to help protect the integrity of the hobby. As an example...DVD's are harder to copy now, as they are usually incripted (or something like that so...I'm to computer stupid to figure it out...lol).

I'm not trying to blame Upper Deck for this at all...it is the scumbag on Ebay (whatever his id's are) that is the problem. It is getting harder and harder to have the same passion for this hobby with all this crap happening though. Seeing as Upper Deck has the exclusive...they SHOULD be the ones trying everything to keep people happy, because in the end, they are the ones that will lose out the most.
 
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SkyFire47 said:
thank you for editing that. i wasn't sure if your remark was worth answering despite the resounding No i was going to give.

and i like Lee's argument because there's no negativity. this is a hobby; i'm involved because i like it. i get that others are more involved and that's great but if i get to the point where i get negative about it and start to criticize every facet of the hobby, i'd probably be out. those who want to look for the flaws will always find them.
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Luckily then, for both of us, this is the only area of the hobby that stinks. You will be hard-pressed to find a post where I complain about redemptions or crappy box breaks. I also love this hobby. I enjoy it, and the friends I have made through it, immensely.

Unfortunately, this flaw negatively impacts the integrity of our collections and the hobby as a whole. And to me, that is worth speaking up for.
 


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