Cup Faker Alert: Has Kenny Ao resurfaced (The Infamous Patch Faker)???

[DougLaurieSports]

Even jail time doesn't always stop these people. Mintz Marin and Friedlander were charged, convicted and at least one of them did jail time in the 1990's if I remember correctly, and they still had stores filled of their bogus autographs in malls in St Catherine, Vaughan and Ottawa as recently as 2007.

I never saw eye to eye with Richard Scott on virtually anything, but his and CSC's vendetta against these con artists was at least commendable.

http://www.faceoff.com/story.html?id=e4b16458-e4f4-4b35-883f-242453f6aefc

When the first story came out, I emailed the reporter and told him he should kicks a few tires about the background of that trio, and lo and behold he did. Too bad I didn't get a quote. wned:

As for the cost of the doing the imaging of The Cup, etc., I find it difficult to believe this would be such a chore. Yes, it's time-consuming and labour-intensive -- as the process is done now.

But there have to be ways around that. Producing all of one set or one player's cards at the same time and then shooting a hi-res scan of the whole bunch can't be that difficult. If it necessitates a change in production, what's the problem?

The biggest issue here is the lack of any formal response about any of this from UD, and I don't mean from Karvin (we don't always agree, but it's my understanding this isn't part of his job description, and yet here he is on occasion, putting himself out there to take crap). I mean action from the top of the company -- a videochat or press release explaining exactly WHY UD either can't or won't doing anything about this.

If they do that and give us all sufficient reasons, I'll be satisfied. Until then, I won't.

 

[NJDEVILS30]

The patch faking is getting pretty bad. Here is the one Gaborik Patch card that I tracked. You can tell it is the same card, not only by the serial number (41/50), but by the autograph....it's identical on each.


The original sale was for serial 41/50 with plain patch (real)

Then the buyer of that card altered the patch (or photo on eBay) and tried selling for more $$. Card is serial number 41/50

Then a different seller tried again. Again it is serial number 41/50

Why do they do this?? Greed!!! $$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Sad the hobby has come to this.

And I remember how happy I was when I purchased the third version at a show... wned:wned:wned:

 

[ninbud]

As some have mentioned in the past.... that after you read "Card Sharks" you will get a nice look at the thoughts and concerns of UD.

 

[suitman19]

gomaz,

I realize that you were there and did the job that we all appreciate!!!!!!!
what I am proposing is somewhat different than your experience. Since I am proposing that the scans are done at the printing process ( And that would be a 'assuming' that the the patch swatches are already inserted BEFORE the final printing and stamping is done?), I am thinking that the job would be much easier since the entire sheet of each player is already separated and also in numerical sequence!!! This would eliminate most of the collation problems that you face!!!

Please correct me if my printing orders are out of whack - you have more knowledge of the process than I. From what I remember you were at the UD facility during the process - I am at the source.

Thanks Bruce

 

[deankal]

I just finished looking at the original Patch forger thread and I gotta say it's pretty scary stuff.

But with this whole thread booming, I'm wondering if anyone has photographic evidence of the current cards listed and/or sold recently proving they're fake. I've recently been quite intrigued with this matter but evidence is always key. Sure if these ebay sellers are the same guy, whose to say the cards are fake? Many of the patch cards listed are not that spectacular.

I think a lot of people are commenting and assuming based on reputation and not substance. I'm not defending this guy in any shape or form, but I'm having a hard time seeing what wrong/crime is being committed this time around? I'm trying to take a unbiased point of view (as any OPP/RCMP would) and they would have a hard time getting anywhere with this. I'm a type of guy who loves to see all the details and evidence before I bash the heck outta them until they have no defense

Getting evidence as to what cards he is faking AGAIN is almost an impossible task. To get a pic of every 1 color patch out there and then cross reference it to the "NEW" fake patch is a daunting task and virtually impossible. That's why the proof that Bruce and the gang from HI found on this guy was unfounded and MORE than anyone can ever expect.

As to wait to see all the details AGAIN before presuming anything about this LOSER....feel free and go right ahead, as it's your right, but there's not a chance in HELL I'd ever pick up a card from this guy nonetheless want to be in the same building as him.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....guess what!!! Chances are it's a Duck and if you want to give this guy the benefit of the doubt and buy cards off of him or you want to wait and see till more evidence is out there.....go right ahead!! I'm not giving this guy an ounce of credibility in this hobby EVER again, but if you need more "substance" have at 'er and feel free to deal with any of those guys listed on this thread.

 

[Kehfee]

Without getting into specifics of why, just trust me when I say that your whole post is inaccurate and not feasible.

Not to nitpick but if that was true then UD doesn't care about patch forgers?

Also I'm being honest when I say I don't know how slabbing high end UD cards isn't feasible since ITG already does it and I know Beckett makes a holder that can slab cards that thick.

I suspect you are saying it isn't feasible because there isn't enough time between production, getting cards signed and returned and packed as well as fit in time to slab them?

 

[koondog44]

I just finished looking at the original Patch forger thread and I gotta say it's pretty scary stuff.

But with this whole thread booming, I'm wondering if anyone has photographic evidence of the current cards listed and/or sold recently proving they're fake. I've recently been quite intrigued with this matter but evidence is always key. Sure if these ebay sellers are the same guy, whose to say the cards are fake? Many of the patch cards listed are not that spectacular.

I think a lot of people are commenting and assuming based on reputation and not substance. I'm not defending this guy in any shape or form, but I'm having a hard time seeing what wrong/crime is being committed this time around? I'm trying to take a unbiased point of view (as any OPP/RCMP would) and they would have a hard time getting anywhere with this. I'm a type of guy who loves to see all the details and evidence before I bash the heck outta them until they have no defense

Without re-reading the entire thread, obviously we don't know if these particular cards are fake, but I don't think most people here really care, as none of us will touch them anyways. This thread is basically informing people that some KNOWN patch fakers have resurfaced under new names.

If Charles Manson showed up at your house selling vacuum cleaners, would you invite him in to give you a demo? I doubt it. If Michael Vick started a dog walking service in your neighbourhood, would you let him take your family pet for a stroll? Unlikely.

The parties involved here are HIGHLY HIGHLY suspect to have been faking previous cards they had, which has cast doubt on the entire integrity of the hobby. We're just looking out for one another so these guys don't ruin it or everyone.

PS - OJ did it

 

[xirxious]

People DO forge Pontiacs, all the time. But they're always 30-40 year old cars, really out of Pontiacs hands by then, but PMD does have an authentication service to help document high option cars. Ford has the "Marti Report" and is assisted by the companies records. Chevy had poor documentation from the time. 'Vettes have always been popular and groups help out free to anyone. The difference between a base 1973 firebird and a SD 455 Trans Am is 10's of thousands. People pay big $$ for titles/vins to wrecked performance cars. They are PROSECUTED for fraud and VIN tampering.
I'm not blaming UD, but setting up a camera to auto photo cards as they go by is not an expensive task. I've seen systems that do it for QC (That stands for Quality Control UD...) Cripes, most of us collectors would do what Gomaz did for free. So, its not UD's fault, but customer faith is flowing out the door....

That's not totally true. If Pontiac found out you were changing their cars (after-market) and re-selling them as originals to make a profit.....trust me, Pontiac would have a BIG BIG problem. Upper Deck likely hasn't witnessed a big drop-off in profits yet because of the faking, and therefore considers it a moot-point. But believe me, if it starts effecting their bottom line, you'd be surprised at how quick the lawyers come out to play.

Unfortunately....not many people (inlcuding myself) have quite buying their products. This needs to start happening I think before anyone in Carlsbad will listen.

 

[gomaz]

gomaz,

I realize that you were there and did the job that we all appreciate!!!!!!!
what I am proposing is somewhat different than your experience. Since I am proposing that the scans are done at the printing process ( And that would be a 'assuming' that the the patch swatches are already inserted BEFORE the final printing and stamping is done?), I am thinking that the job would be much easier since the entire sheet of each player is already separated and also in numerical sequence!!! This would eliminate most of the collation problems that you face!!!

Please correct me if my printing orders are out of whack - you have more knowledge of the process than I. From what I remember you were at the UD facility during the process - I am at the source.

Thanks Bruce

Bruce, I am not referring to my experience but rather to the lengthy and detailed discussions I have had with UD staff surrounding this issue and the reasons that it is not feasible. I am not so egocentric to think that my method was the only method or that if I can't do it no one can. And with that, I can and did do it with challenges and the requirement to pour hundreds of post-image-capture hours into it, which I have not yet completed as I have a busy life (surfing HI every day is like a part-time job!)

There are several practical reasons why it does not work that I am not going to get into for the simple reason that I am not patient enough to subsequently come on here and back them up. Not my job and far from my desire and I could get banned from here. There are several posts in this thread by people who think they have all the answers and frankly, just because you run a card shop, does not mean you know squat about the production process. While everyone is entitled to make suggestions, to those in the know (and my relationships, for better or for worse, put me there), it comes across as gross ignorance.

Bruce, prior to my experience, I thought that it had to be very simple to implement what we all would like to see done. When I say "trust me it isn't" that is only partially based on my experience at the pack-out. It is mostly based on information I learned through discussions with UD staff as a result of spending 6 full days with them as well as ongoing conversations. I tried everything and suggested all the ideas above and each time a rational and practical reason/constraint was presented.

I completely agree with you about being at the source. I begged UD to let me photograph the cards prior to the mix. But this was impossible due to other constraints on resources and logistics. And that is what it all comes down to - resources.

Like anything, if costs go up, prices go up. I am not saying that prices shouldn't go up, but let's face it, The Cup is already expensive enough. Any increase could kill the brand altogether. And look at SPGU or Black - these brands are also very expensive for what you get. Is there room to increase the pack price? I doubt it. So unless each collector donates a few hundred dollars a year to UD, this is not going to happen on their dime because times are tough.

So either put up, or shut up. And that isn't directed at anyone in particular. We each have our own voice in this hobby and it comes out of our wallets. Yes Insider's Edge is wonderful and I love it more than any hobby publication ever. But if you want to be heard by UD, STOP BUYING. Collectively, even our little community here on HI can make a difference.

And if you are a rookie card addict, take a peek at ITG's UM Future Star cards. They are freakin nice and are more limited than any Cup RC. So what if Beckett doesn't put an RC tag next to them! Beckett is an unreputable rag anyway! Sure they don't have logos and such but if we all buy ITG cards, won't the powers that be "hear" that?!?!?! And logos may follow!

Let's stop (wait, I'll be realistic and say "reduce") our incessant complaining and start rallying around the little guy that could! I speak of ITG! Want more licenses, speak with your wallets. Primary and secondary markets!

Wow, if this post seems angry, I'm not really. I'm just passionate like lots of us and I had two glasses of wine on an empty stomach. OK I'm done. Bring on the slammage.

 

[xirxious]

I'm wondering how documenting patches would effect prices. If they showed them all ahead of release, and there was only one 3c patch known, would it drive demand up?

The post didn't sound angry, more frustrated like the rest of us, Gomaz. UD improved the hobby by delivering certified autos instead of ones 'from some guy at the show'. They let the "GU Genie" out of the bottle, why risk losing faith in it? Maybe it helps them sell more sealed boxes opposed to people buying on the secondary market?

 

[mwdonald]

Bruce, I am not referring to my experience but rather to the lengthy and detailed discussions I have had with UD staff surrounding this issue and the reasons that it is not feasible. I am not so egocentric to think that my method was the only method or that if I can't do it no one can. And with that, I can and did do it with challenges and the requirement to pour hundreds of post-image-capture hours into it, which I have not yet completed as I have a busy life (surfing HI every day is like a part-time job!)

There are several practical reasons why it does not work that I am not going to get into for the simple reason that I am not patient enough to subsequently come on here and back them up. Not my job and far from my desire and I could get banned from here. There are several posts in this thread by people who think they have all the answers and frankly, just because you run a card shop, does not mean you know squat about the production process. While everyone is entitled to make suggestions, to those in the know (and my relationships, for better or for worse, put me there), it comes across as gross ignorance.

Bruce, prior to my experience, I thought that it had to be very simple to implement what we all would like to see done. When I say "trust me it isn't" that is only partially based on my experience at the pack-out. It is mostly based on information I learned through discussions with UD staff as a result of spending 6 full days with them as well as ongoing conversations. I tried everything and suggested all the ideas above and each time a rational and practical reason/constraint was presented.

I completely agree with you about being at the source. I begged UD to let me photograph the cards prior to the mix. But this was impossible due to other constraints on resources and logistics. And that is what it all comes down to - resources.

Like anything, if costs go up, prices go up. I am not saying that prices shouldn't go up, but let's face it, The Cup is already expensive enough. Any increase could kill the brand altogether. And look at SPGU or Black - these brands are also very expensive for what you get. Is there room to increase the pack price? I doubt it. So unless each collector donates a few hundred dollars a year to UD, this is not going to happen on their dime because times are tough.

So either put up, or shut up. And that isn't directed at anyone in particular. We each have our own voice in this hobby and it comes out of our wallets. Yes Insider's Edge is wonderful and I love it more than any hobby publication ever. But if you want to be heard by UD, STOP BUYING. Collectively, even our little community here on HI can make a difference.

And if you are a rookie card addict, take a peek at ITG's UM Future Star cards. They are freakin nice and are more limited than any Cup RC. So what if Beckett doesn't put an RC tag next to them! Beckett is an unreputable rag anyway! Sure they don't have logos and such but if we all buy ITG cards, won't the powers that be "hear" that?!?!?! And logos may follow!

Let's stop (wait, I'll be realistic and say "reduce") our incessant complaining and start rallying around the little guy that could! I speak of ITG! Want more licenses, speak with your wallets. Primary and secondary markets!

Wow, if this post seems angry, I'm not really. I'm just passionate like lots of us and I had two glasses of wine on an empty stomach. OK I'm done. Bring on the slammage.

I could have written my own novel here as well but I'll refrain and just leave it at this Jeremy: :beer:

 

[TheBostonKid]

UD needs to release a product guide showing the pieces so that this can be avoided...a simple photograph of the cards would do. You could see the card, then simply compare it to the list...how hard would that be?

 

[meatmancgy]

A few options to stop this:

1. UD should slab higher-end patch cards, as someone else proposed.
2. If they can't do that, they should detail the higher-end patches they use, similar to how Futera does here: http://www.footballxi.com/unique08/GPU06/GPU06ColourCodingChart.pdf Not perfect, but commendable and usable.
3. If they won't do that, UD should STOP inserting patch cards or multiple colour cards completely.
4. If they refuse, don't buy any UD patch cards on the secondary market... period.

Look, I have nothing against UD per se, and I definitely agree that Karvin does amazing things for us hockey collectors; however, if nothing is done, REMOVE the patches from the effin' cards!!

I'm sick of finding thieves and scammers in this hobby, and NOTHING being done about them.

 

[No No No.....The other Steve]

Okay so UD can't photo every card down the line because there are too many. Cool. How about this then, since UD was the pioneer to the anti counterfeit with the hologram why not do something similar with all game used pieces? Are all pieces cut by hand or done through a machine? If through a machine how about retrofitting the machine with some type of small sprayer that would mark each piece with a tiny florescent UD die mark that was only visible under black light? They wouldn't have to but they could even put in a small identifier light in with each box. I know I would definitely go out and buy a small black light just for shows and what not if it wasn't included but if it was you could even request the person selling light the card up in a photo for proof. It wouldn't be fool proof but it would help. Of course it would cost money up front but it would definitely add piece of mind to every piece on memorabilia.

 

[gomaz]

Of the suggestions in the three posts above, the only one that is feasible is Bruce's #3. The rest have ALL been looked into by UD and deemed not to be feasible for technical and/or economical reasons.

People here seem to think that UD grows money like they print cards. Wrong. Capital is not allocated this way. If you want UD to implement these methods, start cutting a cheque to UD each time you buy a card.

At the end of the day, anything they do, we will pay for. Not that that is so bad.

We pay for the slabs in ITG UM. But guess what, add in a license and the cost per pack goes up. There is a direct correlation.

At the high-end level of the hobby today its like we are required to choose between two attributes: protection or licensed.

Personally, I value protection and have therefore made the easy decision to convert to ITG. That decision was made quite easily once UM9 came out and blew me away (and subsequently, my bank account).

 

[FrankToronto]

We should go back to just base cards and bubble gum...

 

[Hama]

We should go back to just base cards and bubble gum...

That's why I've stuck to OPC - not too many bells and whistles, big set and more focus on just building the set - instead of trying to land autographs, GU or other shinies.

The state of the industry is driving me away - and it's not an exclusive matter, ITG or Topps - there aren't too many things that are fun anymore, because the fun has been sucked out.

 

[meatmancgy]

We should go back to just base cards and bubble gum...

Bring back the OPC blunt knife too! I would enjoy chasing a set much more with just one set to build every year I think... get back to trading. Actually, I may just stick with the mid-level sets like 1972, BTP, etc. from now on. At least I can trust the swatches in ITG stuff.

 

[geplimestone]

Okay so UD can't photo every card down the line because there are too many. Cool. How about this then, since UD was the pioneer to the anti counterfeit with the hologram why not do something similar with all game used pieces? Are all pieces cut by hand or done through a machine? If through a machine how about retrofitting the machine with some type of small sprayer that would mark each piece with a tiny florescent UD die mark that was only visible under black light? They wouldn't have to but they could even put in a small identifier light in with each box. I know I would definitely go out and buy a small black light just for shows and what not if it wasn't included but if it was you could even request the person selling light the card up in a photo for proof. It wouldn't be fool proof but it would help. Of course it would cost money up front but it would definitely add piece of mind to every piece on memorabilia.

my god this has turned into an angry thread....

Steve, i think thats a wonderful idea that i had'nt thought of...if anyone remembers donruss did that exact same thing for there 2007 national treasures...now to have your card ID'ed you had to send it in....but i'm sure dealers could go out and buy a cheap black light for things like this....thats something i could see working very well....and cost effective to...

but going back to my suggestion....why is'nt fixing a camera to the end of the product line snaping photos of all the un-cut sheets of patch cards not an easy fix? look at series one....patch cards are /15 so thats a total 15 photos and about 10 minutes to up-load to photo bucket or w/e....sure the cup has alot more...but really...50 photos for limited logos...75 for the signature patches....199 for the rookies....still alot of photos but a cheap worthy method of fixing this problem is it not??? if not what am i missing?


another suggestion would be for upperdeck to start making thiner patch cards....in turn pack searchers would have a harder time finding them, it would save some cost with less cardboard needed to produce them...and the patch piece would be sandwiched in like ITG does it?....where does the problem lie with that upperdeck?


this thing is just one big mess...and no doubt kenny is laughing at all of us....lets fix this friggin problem and move on....i think we're all tired of hearing about it....


Geoff

 

[Kahnadah]

How about putting a plastic seal inside the patch window, inside the card? They could have a "UD Authentic" hologram type thing over it. If someone tries to take it out, it'll destroy the card. It would be sandwiched between the layers of cardboard and not the patch window itself, so no-one would need to add it later on. At least, that's if the cards are made the way I think they are, with the top layer, mid layer and back layer of the card seperate and only joined together after the patch is affixed to the mid layer....

If that's not the way they get made, ignore me.

james