Leaf Exclusive Nico Hischier

[LeafCeo]

I also agree with most of Snobles points quoted above.







Collectors are upset, but it's not at UD. They're upset at Leaf. For the first time ever an unlicensed underdog is essentially stealing NHL licensed rookie autos from collectors and it's obviously being met with backlash.



I know you want collectors to revolt against UD to end exclusives but the reality is the hobby masses would rather UD have the big rookies locked up. UD signing guys like McDavid and Matthews guaranteed there would be NHL licensed rookie autos of those two superstars and that's what the average collector wanted. Very few people are going to get mad at UD for that. Most will applaud it.



They will however get mad at Leaf when another top prospect is locked up and the hobby is deprived of licensed NHL rookie autos. It's just the way it is. No exclusives would obviously be ideal but the hobby in general is going to side with the licensed company every time because licensed rookies (autos in particular) are king.



You may see it as a tactic to remain competitive but I would say the average collector sees it as Leaf holding another prospect hostage. If anything, UD is going to push even harder signing exclusives going forward and the hobby at large will support keeping top rookies under the NHL license umbrella.



I don't doubt for a minute that you have the best intentions in mind, but I'm sorry I just don't see this strategy doing anything other than generating more resentment towards Leaf.



I know you are pushing for a fair fight to compete with UD but the fact remains they are licensed and you are not, so by nature it will never be a fair fight. To expect them to give up their position of power and meet you half way is a lofty expectation. You need a license of your own to truly compete on a level playing field and I don't believe continuously attacking the NHLPA's established partner in this manner is the way to go about it. You catch more flies with honey as they say, and if that doesn't work aggression rarely makes the difference. I always hoped ITG would get a license back and when Leaf first took over I felt the same but sadly at this point I just don't think it's ever going to happen.



The passion is absolutely there but the execution is (in my opinion anyway) only digging a deeper hole for Leaf and I doubt you will see the desired effect. I as a collector firmly disagree with the way Leaf is going about this situation.



I will give you this though, you and Gregg are troopers for coming on the forum to discuss this with us and open an ear to our feedback, good and bad. I've written novels like the one above to air grievances with UD in the past also but I've sure as hell never gotten a response. Taking the time to listen does not go overlooked.

Thanks for the thoughts...

The fact is, we will continue to compete....
We are happy signing the top rookies exclusive every year, if that is what has to happen.

I will say that the "backlash" is vastly over stated as it is absolutely a vocal minority that get upset, etc..,

Our products are stronger and more attractive than they have even been..
The market is lauding these items on virtually every release..

The fact is, as long as you "side with the licensee blindly" every time, nothing will change.., you will continue getting the short end of the stick from them..,

While we want EVERYONE to be happy, that just isn't likely to happen.

The fact is... IF Upper Deck survives the massive Tax Issues facing the company, another licensee (likely Topps or Panini) being added is vey likely.

If that happens, NHLPA will demand no licensed companies do exclusives.

That could start to fix things for sure...
Brian

Ps- At least we make hockey cards and actually want the guys... what UD did on Ben Simmons is appalling...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LeafCeo]

So your ultimate goal is to hurt UD, your not working for the collectors in any means, the Young Guns will sell better than any of the auto's Leaf puts out, we all know that, and that's what most of us look forward to, the Young Guns.

First, as we've said ten time, no... we don't want to hurt UD.. we want to fix the hobby THEY are hurting..

Second, Gregg only pointed out that this would hurt UD because someone on this post somehow thought UD would sell exactly the same as previous years.. Lol

Lastly, I will take that bet that we will have lots of Nolan Patrick autos (and Nico autos) worth more than young guns.. but, I agree with you guns cards are now more important than ever for these guys...

It's clear from your posts you aren't a fan of Leaf (and that's fine), but in fairness you could TRY looking at it from all sides instead of only your preconceived notion/position.

BG


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[lucscaps]

Thanks for the thoughts...


Ps- At least we make hockey cards and actually want the guys... what UD did on Ben Simmons is appalling...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What do you mean by this?
I'm not siding with UD, I'm not siding with you, to me the devils have been non existent in your releases and I have not collected them. I have no Leaf in my collection.

Wether it's by UD, NHLPA or Leaf design the exclusive means I don't get to collect certified auto's of the Devils top pick featured in a Devils jersey.

That's all I care about and I'm not the only collect that feels that way. It's my hobby dollars and they will be staying with me.

 

[LeafCeo]

Short term it hurts UD, long term the hobby as a whole suffers. These players will never have the cards you mentioned above and that leaves a MASSIVE hole in the hobby. Future generations will come looking for these players if they have good careers and they won't find the staple licensed autos they are after.



Many will settle for the Leaf autos but is that really a good thing? Having to settle for the Leaf card because there is no licensed alternative? People like to use the old Joe Montana Topps rookie card as an argument that licensing shouldn't matter but when there is no other licensed alternative it's a completely different situation, cards like that only win by default because nothing else exists. If Montana had a FWA, Cup RC, or even a Young Gun back in the day nobody would look twice at the Topps card. Not saying it's right or wrong to look at it that way but for better or worse it's the reality of how the hockey market functions.



And I know Leaf is aware of the value that comes with licensed rookies because they are used in a big way to sell the Leaf repack products. I reckon some McDavid and Matthews UD rookie autos will be used in future releases also









I've been up since 4:10 AM for work and it's quiet in here, so I've had some extra time to type out my thoughts haha.



We (the online community) are generally "in the know" and we've heard the Leaf side of the story when it comes to how these exclusives came to be quite a bit over the past year, but the general collecting public doesn't know and likely will never know any of these behind the scenes details. An outsider just wanting to pull NHL rookie cards is going to be upset that Leaf is locking up these players. As these threads show even those of us who DO know the situation still don't like what is going on here.



Like I said to Mr. Gray above, I'm appreciative that my lowly opinion is at least being heard and responded to. Even if it's not necessarily what you guys want to hear

Your opinion is not lowly, in fact, every opinion matters.

You've seen the emails I sent UD above.
I'm doing the right thing long term, I know it.

If anyone can read those emails and can't see my honest efforts to improve things, I can't convince them clearly.

BG


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LeafCeo]

Kinda like the Jack Eichel collection? Aren't these the cards people were peeling the stickers off of and putting them on UD cards??? The cards are so compelling that people just can't contain the excitement that they destroy the card.

Honesty, if you don't have the ability to be constructive, why spend the time?

And we offered stickered autos of Eichel on young guns, o no need to peel them off..

Brian


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LeafCeo]

All I'm going to say is that I do not want a card showing the Devils top pick in altered jersey. I'm a Devils fan. I want to collect the Devils new player and I want him in a Devils sweater.

All this vintage stuff you put out can have these blanked out jersey's or whatever because by player collectors will snatch them up and those guys are out of the game and odds are have travelled to different teams.

Look at the sample size on the show and tell posts, I can't remember the last time I've seen anyone say hey I picked up this sweet eichel auto card showing this blurred out Sabres jersey. I have seen people say look at this sweet vintage piece.

I guess though now the Devils will be relevant to Leaf?

I could care less about an exlusive, all I want to see is the Devils logo on the card of the players I like to watch on my favorite team.

Not one of my fellow Devils fan has said ....... sweet, this is going to be awesome...... it's all been the complete opposite.

You'll have plenty of logo cards to collect ... for people who actually want to pull these cards, there is leaf..

No one mentions that in UD products you almost never pull McD autos..

We make our guys easier to pull.. having the autographs obtainable and available does lead to lower prices, but allows the average person to actually pull an auto of these guys...

BG


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jupin11]

I have been a collector for as long as I can remember. Through the years, I have continued my patronage despite my many gripes: quality control, customer service, transparency, redemptions, sell sheets not representing actual product, etc. I’ve chosen to live with these issues because I really do enjoy the hobby and busting wax. But this just isn't fun for me anymore.

This exclusives fiasco has broken the camel’s back. I do not want to engage in a discussion about who is at fault/more at fault in this debacle. All that matters to me is this fact: Connor McDavid, Jack Eichel, Auston Matthews, Nolan Patrick, Nico Hischier and Joe Veleno are all signed to exclusives. I do not feel the need to describe how this situation is problematic for consumers. Those problems are obvious, and have been covered in detail throughout this thread and others. Even Mr. Gray denounces exclusives.

Mr. Gray, I appreciate your engagement with me through our many differences. And you will likely elaborate on Leaf's position and/or cast blame on UD in this thread, but I’m not looking to assign culpability. I am simply saying that this duopoly on RC Autos has killed my enjoyment of the hobby. Your stated goal is to end exclusives, and I wish you the best of luck. But I have no interest in paying for a front row seat to that fight.

You wanted to generate a consumer uprising against UD's use of exclusives. And in my particular case, your scorched earth policy has been successful, and then some. I want to be a part of this hobby, but until the current landscape changes, and consumers are not adversely impacted by this duopoly, you have both lost my business.

What should be most concerning to Leaf and UD is the ease in which I can walk away. Bowman was great this year, and I’m actually excited to put my hockey budget towards more baseball next year. You see the world as Leaf versus Upper Deck. I see the world as hockey versus everything else. Hockey just lost this round.

Regards,
Justin

 

[rvelligan]

I see the world as hockey versus everything else. Hockey just lost this round.

Regards,
Justin

Truth. Hockey is behind all other sports as far as collecting goes. This will not help matters.

 

[SNobles]

It's a bold and risky strategy that seems to be making more enemies than friends at present, both with your competition and the collectors who are upset about losing NHL autos of these players. If there is a positive ending to this whole thing I don't see it on the horizon yet.

Not to mention the stores who rely on selling hockey products. I know there are many hobby shop owners on here. I would love to see one of them post that this is a good thing for them or the hobby.

 

[TADontAsk]

As a Devils RC collector, this is actually the first time an autograph exclusive will affect me.

First off, this is very disappointing news, but I can't blame Leaf at all. They're a business, and this is a perfectly legal move to improve their business. Collectors don't like it because they can't get these players in all products, but that's the reality of the license agreement. If you owned a company, you'd do everything in your power to compete, and that's just what they're doing. I just can't see how anyone can get mad at Leaf because of the deal the NHL chose to have.

Personally, I collect RCs of Devils players. The key being "Devils", and not the specific players, so for me it means having the NJ Devils logo on a player's card is a must. I won't really collect Patrick or Hischier otherwise. I also tend to collect larger base sets, so I'm not really the target consumer for Leaf products. But I do try and do one "hits" break each year and a couple of years ago I tried ITG Used. I thought the cards I pulled were tremendous. I've also purchased a handful of their Scott Stevens cards over the past few years. I hope things can work out for Leaf in the future.

 

[lucscaps]

You'll have plenty of logo cards to collect ... for people who actually want to pull these cards, there is leaf..

No one mentions that in UD products you almost never pull McD autos..

We make our guys easier to pull.. having the autographs obtainable and available does lead to lower prices, but allows the average person to actually pull an auto of these guys...

BG

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Explain this to me, I don't understand what you are saying here. If I'm reading this correct your saying that people want to pull cards of players with the logo's airbrushed off the jersey?

Or do they have to pull one of these because of the exclusives?

I can't see someone having that preference whether the card is made by UD/Leaf/PC or some guy in his basement. Who would prefer that?

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth I'm trying to understand.

Also, in an age where collectors are saying they don't need all the auto's and all the game used in everything I think your missing the point just like the argument for not making base cards in the other thread. Saying the odds of pulling a McDavid are hard, well they should be, he's just as hard in SPa as everyone else for example. But when you pull a McD auto your super happy because you actually have something that will hold a value that is attached to it. Did Eichel hold value when his auto's where put into every product you made in various forms? It's an honest question?

I'm not trying to pile on, I'm trying to understand how any of this is good for anything.

 

[MMarch]

No matter what side of the fence you are on, give some credit to Leaf for being here front and center actually discussing the issues in the hobby. They take the good with the endless bashing and don't run and hide from it. This speaks volumes in my opinion, if they didn't care what the collectors on this forum think, they wouldn't be here. Unlike Upper Deck who is here on the forum reading this and every other Leaf, Presidents Choice, Panini, and Upper Deck thread, but won't say a word to us, the collectors. Maybe they have a gag order from their lawyers due to endless stream of lawsuits against them, but that's the easy excuse for ducking the issues.

 

[will-411]

I guess it's just me, but why is the auto'ed rookie card such a big deal? Those of you complaining about the SPA or Cup non auto'ed rookie cards sound like trained seals. It appears to me that you're upset because UD has convinced you that autograph has an incredibly high intrinsic value, in some cases, a 1000x what they pay for them.

Products change all the time, and all this means is UD is going to have to work harder to convince you you're getting value for your money... In my opinion, they've spent the last few years changing the autographed product market from a wide variety of valued (but expensive for them) veterans to focus on the rookie autograph which they can get for a much lower cost, yet charge you the same, or more per box. I don't begrudge either side their part in this - they are businesses trying to survive, make some money and potentially grow. Some of you don't seem to feel that's a good business model though.

I'm with Barrie and Quincy - collect what you like and enjoy yourself.

As an aside, I do find it a bit ironic that UD has spent the last few years turning their product focus to the perceived value of autos from rookies, and now it may bite them severely in the rear when they can't access two top picks... and by the way, remember these guys have to play an NHL game before UD can even think about using them. There's no guarantee either of these kids will even get licensed cards next year (I realize the Leaf exclusive is longer than that and may just apply a year later - just pointing out nothing is set in stone).

Cory

 

[FrozenInferno]

Your opinion is not lowly, in fact, every opinion matters.

You've seen the emails I sent UD above.
I'm doing the right thing long term, I know it.

If anyone can read those emails and can't see my honest efforts to improve things, I can't convince them clearly.

BG


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My last reply before the "beating a dead horse" memes come out :laugh:

Yes, the intention to improve the hobby is there. The passion is there. Never doubted either of those things.

I just don't think this particular strategy is going to accomplish anything other than a string of top talent players who will never have staple NHL rookie autos. That is permanent damage to the hobby that can never be reversed no matter how good the intentions might have been at the time. I'm not suggesting you give up the fight entirely but there must be another way to go about it that doesn't result in disappointed collectors like the folks who commented above. There has to be.

I'm bummed that I won't be able to add a Nico NHL rookie auto to my stash of former Mooseheads/Screaming Eagles rookie autos. I was looking forward to it. I'll survive though.

 

[lucscaps]

will-411 it's not that I think auto'd rc's a big deal. There are simply cards that I like that feature the auto.
In a perfect world all cards would be closer to a opc platinum/yg then a cup rc.

My issue is that I no longer have the chance to pull a certified auto of my teams top rc featuring the Devils crest on it.

I felt the same way when Sabre's fans couldn't pull an auto of Eichel with a the Sabre's logo.

I do collect what I like, and what I like are cards of Devils players with the Devils crest on it, now I won't be able to have that auto'd.

 

[RGM81]

I was at UD for 10 years, trust me they care. Have they ever not had the 1 and 2 picks? Can't compare this year to any of the past few. No McDavid or Mathews to fall back on. Also, when has UD ever beefed up content when a rookie crop is weak? Not their model to do that.

I'm sure that this will come as a surprise to you guys, but you know what? Good on you. Not just for the signing--which you are totally within your realm to do, just as Frameworth is for memorabilia to the exclusion of AJ's, etc.--but because I do think that this move is going to force UD to make some serious decisions about how they approach 2017-18 products.

Having the top two prospects in your camp is a big coup. It is going to affect changes for the upcoming season. You guys get to make cards with autos featuring the top two rookies (assuming they make their respective teams) and hopefully expand your audience.

Gregg, you mentioned something in the post quoted above that does merit a response. The answer to your question is 2012-13. The lockout essentially forced UD (and Panini, who was still licensed at the time) to focus on veteran content for the limited release schedule because of the extremely limited rookie talent pool. Seriously, go look at the roster of RC's for The Cup that year. Yeesh. But by forcing the licensees to up the ante on their veteran content, some of the nicest sets and checklists this decade appeared in products like SP Authentic--check out Sign of the Times. 63 card checklist and a lot of big-name players because they knew if the set was going to be viable they couldn't rely on Jake Allen and Chris Kreider to move product.

Leaf is now in a spot not unlike a young man named Peter Parker. With great power comes great responsibility. Take advantage of your autograph exclusive and max out on its potential--put out some awesome cards featuring Patrick & Hischier, and get some hard-signed autos in there that really pop and will get people talking.

IMO that was one of the shortcomings of the Eichel exclusive during his rookie year--you guys had full rein for his autos and didn't fully capitalize on it. Too many stickers and even now I see that he's got redemption cards in this year's Metal release. It's the unholy trifecta: unlicensed, stickers, and redemptions. Yeah UD has two of those three issues sprinkled throughout their products, but Eichel is literally your signature guy. Rightly or wrongly, people see that Leaf hitched the wagon to Eichel with that deal so there's an expectation (rightly or wrongly) that you should be able to get on-card autos of him on the regular.

The people that will be most affected by this are collectors. As was pointed out, many of UD's signature-heavy products are now going to feature autograph-less rookies of the top two prospects. Those sets will still be released, they will still sell strongly, people will still buy them and collect the sets. But like Eichel's UD releases, the values of the should-have-been autos will be lowered pretty dramatically and the guys who collect those cards will be left with weird-looking windows on the cards where the auto should be.

So it's up to Leaf to fill that void for those two players. Design some awesome cards and get some sweet ink on them, and force people to be like, "Damn, I want that card!"

2017-18 is going to be a very different type of year in the hobby. Was already a less-than-stellar class that will force some shifting of priorities because there was never going to be McDavid-Mania or Auston 3:16 type fever for these two guys. But Leaf's move here is hopefully going to push both themselves and UD to work a little harder for our dollars.

 

[LeafCeo]

I have been a collector for as long as I can remember. Through the years, I have continued my patronage despite my many gripes: quality control, customer service, transparency, redemptions, sell sheets not representing actual product, etc. I’ve chosen to live with these issues because I really do enjoy the hobby and busting wax. But this just isn't fun for me anymore.



This exclusives fiasco has broken the camel’s back. I do not want to engage in a discussion about who is at fault/more at fault in this debacle. All that matters to me is this fact: Connor McDavid, Jack Eichel, Auston Matthews, Nolan Patrick, Nico Hischier and Joe Veleno are all signed to exclusives. I do not feel the need to describe how this situation is problematic for consumers. Those problems are obvious, and have been covered in detail throughout this thread and others. Even Mr. Gray denounces exclusives.



Mr. Gray, I appreciate your engagement with me through our many differences. And you will likely elaborate on Leaf's position and/or cast blame on UD in this thread, but I’m not looking to assign culpability. I am simply saying that this duopoly on RC Autos has killed my enjoyment of the hobby. Your stated goal is to end exclusives, and I wish you the best of luck. But I have no interest in paying for a front row seat to that fight.



You wanted to generate a consumer uprising against UD's use of exclusives. And in my particular case, your scorched earth policy has been successful, and then some. I want to be a part of this hobby, but until the current landscape changes, and consumers are not adversely impacted by this duopoly, you have both lost my business.



What should be most concerning to Leaf and UD is the ease in which I can walk away. Bowman was great this year, and I’m actually excited to put my hockey budget towards more baseball next year. You see the world as Leaf versus Upper Deck. I see the world as hockey versus everything else. Hockey just lost this round.



Regards,

Justin

Justin,
This is an amazing post. Thank you for sharing.

I know this sounds crazy, but as a collector myself, all these exclusives make me crazy too! Every league and PA exclusive plus player deals make me nuts.

I hate that the craziness in this business has pushed you a different direction.

Hopefully, when the dust settles in a year or two, you will be attracted to the category again when it is healthier than today.

Collectors need a choice. It's that easy.
Because the League and PA don't give you that choice, companies like Leaf in Hockey and Panini in baseball have to fight to be that choice.

I don't blame your decision in the slightest.

Unfortunately, to roll over and play dead as suggested by many here will further reduce choices and give UD less incentive to make good products.

Rest assured, consumers would be far more harmed in that world. More $150 boxes with $10 worth of cards than you have ever dreamed of.

I hope this category through long term change wins you back.

Brian


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LeafCeo]

Not to mention the stores who rely on selling hockey products. I know there are many hobby shop owners on here. I would love to see one of them post that this is a good thing for them or the hobby.

Ask the right question...

Do you stores want more choices for consumers? Do you want competition that drives everyone to be better?

Asking the right question is everything..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LeafCeo]

My last reply before the "beating a dead horse" memes come out :laugh:



Yes, the intention to improve the hobby is there. The passion is there. Never doubted either of those things.



I just don't think this particular strategy is going to accomplish anything other than a string of top talent players who will never have staple NHL rookie autos. That is permanent damage to the hobby that can never be reversed no matter how good the intentions might have been at the time. I'm not suggesting you give up the fight entirely but there must be another way to go about it that doesn't result in disappointed collectors like the folks who commented above. There has to be.



I'm bummed that I won't be able to add a Nico NHL rookie auto to my stash of former Mooseheads/Screaming Eagles rookie autos. I was looking forward to it. I'll survive though.

Don't forget, we are already gave you fully licensed Nico autograph cards in Metal Hockey (and upcoming Heroes and Prospects hockey)... they are fully licensed with logos! At least you have a CHL option


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RGM81]

Don't forget, we are already gave you fully licensed Nico autograph cards in Metal Hockey (and upcoming Heroes and Prospects hockey)... they are fully licensed with logos! Problem solved.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not the same thing. If I have an opportunity to buy a Shea Weber Kelowna Rockets licensed auto or a Shea Weber Montreal Canadiens licensed auto, the latter will win 10/10 times.