Another UD cut signature screwup?

gomaz said:
What really irks me as a collector is that now, when my friends ask me how I know the memorabilia and autographs in my collection are real (and they ask me all the time), I have to say that I don't know.

It's funny how people who are not in the hobby question the authenticity of our collection and we as collectors *often* take the blind leap of faith and spend our good, hard earned money on this stuff.

Are we fools?
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This is why when given a choice between an ITG card and an Upper Deck card, I choose ITG almost every single time.
 
blindros88 said:
This is why when given a choice between an ITG card and an Upper Deck card, I choose ITG almost every single time.
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I completely hear you.

While I respect Brian Price and I do believe the memorabilia in ITG's cards is authentic (as evidenced by my recent spending on UM product), how can we as collectors become completely secure in knowing this?

How do I know for sure that the stick piece on a Stick Rack or the patch on an Ultimate Emblem is actually game-used by the player depicted?

The back of ITG's cards are very similar to the backs of UD's. They both say "Congratulations". They both are signed by the President of the respective company.

The lack of integrity to the name on the back of UD's cards impacts the whole hobby, not just UD.

I am not sure how we can gain complete comfort, but if ITG is able to figure that out, they would be even further ahead than they already are in terms of the perception of authenticity of their product.

I am not calling out ITG. Nor am I comparing them to UD.

However, ITG, by circumstance is lumped in with UD (and other producers), within the hobby. Us collectors here on HI are among the most passionate in the world. We have met Brian in person, and interacted with him at shows. We know he is a collector like us. But as this hobby is not exactly thriving, how does the Muzz card impact the perception of the hobby as a whole by those outside the message board circles? And the whole includes ITG.

I see a great opportunity here for ITG.

Unfortunately for UD, it's probably too late.
 
The day Richard McWilliam gets his *** off his throne in his ivory tower and addresses ANYTHING to do with screwups from Upper Deck is the day folks like Karvin Cheung and Chris Carlin can breathe a sign of relief that "The King" is finally willing to take a bullet for a change.

I'll sing Chris and Karvin's praises all day long (with apologies to others who work at UD that I don't personally know) but I'm sick and tired of hearing them forcefully give explanations about different issues when it's clear they're handcuffed.

Let's go McWilliam. Grow a set and get your lousy *** down here and tell us why screwups like these happen. Dr. Price is man enough to face collectors eye to eye...need I say more? Maybe the picture that Card Sharks paints of you is more accurate than I thought. I'd say your reputation rides on a response, but the sheen came off of that one in the early 90s, no?
 
gomaz said:
I completely hear you.

While I respect Brian Price and I do believe the memorabilia in ITG's cards is authentic (as evidenced by my recent spending on UM product), how can we as collectors become completely secure in knowing this?

How do I know for sure that the stick piece on a Stick Rack or the patch on an Ultimate Emblem is actually game-used by the player depicted?

The back of ITG's cards are very similar to the backs of UD's. They both say "Congratulations". They both are signed by the President of the respective company.

The lack of integrity to the name on the back of UD's cards impacts the whole hobby, not just UD.

I am not sure how we can gain complete comfort, but if ITG is able to figure that out, they would be even further ahead than they already are in terms of the perception of authenticity of their product.

I am not calling out ITG. Nor am I comparing them to UD.

However, ITG, by circumstance is lumped in with UD (and other producers), within the hobby. Us collectors here on HI are among the most passionate in the world. We have met Brian in person, and interacted with him at shows. We know he is a collector like us. But as this hobby is not exactly thriving, how does the Muzz card impact the perception of the hobby as a whole by those outside the message board circles? And the whole includes ITG.

I see a great opportunity here for ITG.

Unfortunately for UD, it's probably too late.
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I agree with you that this does impact the hobby as a whole, but I also feel this gives ITG a great opportunity.

To my knowledge, there has never been an incident with a non-authentic signature or piece of memorabilia surfacing on an ITG product.

Upper Deck has a track record of this happening, and the part that irritates me the most is the fact that it continues to happen. Personally, if Upper Deck was my company I would have taken steps to make sure this sort of thing never happened again. The fact that it continues to happen across all brands of Upper Deck displays a company-wide lack of care to me, from the CEO on down. If the CEO cares so little about his name to have it attached over and over to things of this nature sends a message to all the other employees that this really isn't a big deal.

This brings me to the card backs. While the overall purpose of the card backs is the same, the two are nothing alike. Here is a comparison from 2007-08, the most recent I have in my collection:

ITG:
"You have received a Famous Fabrics First Overall card from Superlative Hockey by In The Game, Inc. On the front of this card is a piece of game-used Eric Lindros Philadelphia Flyers jersey."

Upper Deck:
You have received an Eric Lindros Game-Used trading card. On the front of this card are pieces of memorabilia that have been certified to us as having been used in an official NHL game. We hope you enjoy this piece of hockey history, as we continue to keep you as close as you can get!"

The differences here are striking. As an attorney, these two "certificates" have completely different significance. The Upper Deck certificate attempts to pass off any potential liability if the memorabilia is in fact not game-used. Furthermore, the construction of the Upper Deck certificate does not positively state that the memorabilia is even from the depicted player. Again, another attempt to deflect potential liability. ITG makes positive statements as to the authenticity and the player with no attempt to pass on the liability.

The simple fact here is this: ITG has more credibility. Collectors have never had a reason to distrust ITG. Upper Deck has lost a lot of credibility with me since the exclusive because they keep making big mistakes over and over and they always try to pass the blame on.

I also think there is a simple answer as to why this is the case. Dr. Price has a much more hands on approach to his business because he is a collector himself. He creates products that he is passionate about, and this attitude flows down throughout the organization.

Frankly, Upper Deck is a large enough company that they should be able to hire a dedicated person with independent knowledge of the sport's collectibles to oversee the acquisition of game used memorabilia and autographs. Maybe it takes more than one person for each sport, but are these salaries worth the reduction in negative outcomes in litigation? Perhaps.
 
I'm wondering that since we know there are a few UD employees frequent the board if they would be willing to try and get an interview going with Tricky **** McWilliams. I would personally love to hear why there are so many screw ups with his product and the steps he is taking to ensure that the integrity of the product is there. I think that every collector that has ever spend a dime on their product deserves an answer. Am I the only one who can picture him pulling the Nixon flashing the piece signs and telling everyone 'I'm not a crook'
 
blindros88 - I completely agree with 90% of your post and won't touch on the 10% I do not as it is outside the scope of the spirit of this discussion.

Brian Price and ITG certainly do have way more credibility that UD does.

I hope that any impact that this Muzz card has on the hobby does not inadvertently, by association as a producer in the industry, effect ITG's success.

As far as the card back goes, ITG adds significant value to their cards by informing the collector about the source of the piece. The recent additions to my collection of 4 and 5 piece Lemieux and Brodeur UM9 cards are among my favorite cards because I know that they are from NHL and Team Canada jerseys. With UD cards you are left guessing which uniform, and player a piece is from.

I would like to revise my statement that UD and ITG card backs are the same. My purpose was to point out that they are both signed by the President of their respective companies.

A couple months ago I compared the disclaimer on 10 different UD card backs and found there are at least 8 different versions. This told me that their legal department is basically inept and that they have no idea where the memorabilia comes from.

By the time I looked at the most recent version of the disclaimer I almost couldn't see it as it had so many holes.

I agree that collectors have no reason to distrust ITG. Brian is a collector and that fact alone should bring comfort to us.

My fear however is that the Muzz incident could cause damage to the whole hobby. Again, why I see this as an excellent opportunity for ITG.

If this gets media attention, the NHL would have to really think about who it wants as a licensee. As a loose comparison, just look at the deals Tiger has already lost.
 
gomaz said:
If this gets media attention, the NHL would have to really think about who it wants as a licensee. As a loose comparison, just look at the deals Tiger has already lost.
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As much as I would like to see the licensee situation be examined by the NHL, with two names SOMEWHAT known in the hockey world, as a non-Ruthian level error and in the sport with the least general awareness in the US, I don't know if the media would care, and even if so, I'm not sure if that would change the NHL's opinion of their licensees. The NHL has displayed remarkable stubborness with many issues and I don't know if publicity in hobby magazines would change their beliefs.

Perhaps if The Hockey News ran with it as part of an article about the hobby (exclusive, errors, etc), you might see some acknowledgement from the NHL, but sadly, I don't see any changes coming. I don't think they (the NHL) have it in them.

Kevin
 
kmitchel said:
As much as I would like to see the licensee situation be examined by the NHL, with two names SOMEWHAT known in the hockey world, as a non-Ruthian level error and in the sport with the least general awareness in the US, I don't know if the media would care, and even if so, I'm not sure if that would change the NHL's opinion of their licensees. The NHL has displayed remarkable stubborness with many issues and I don't know if publicity in hobby magazines would change their beliefs.

Perhaps if The Hockey News ran with it as part of an article about the hobby (exclusive, errors, etc), you might see some acknowledgement from the NHL, but sadly, I don't see any changes coming. I don't think they (the NHL) have it in them.

Kevin
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Given that Operation Bullpen has been done and over with for more than a few years, and generated some outcry, but not enough to really make a difference, it's not exactly going to become front page news.

Hobby confidence or not, it's not the kind of issue that will raise the hackles of the general populace like health care, education, or right now, Tiger Woods.
 
snipped, but very well stated Jeremy... very well stated.

gomaz said:
If this gets media attention, the NHL would have to really think about who it wants as a licensee. As a loose comparison, just look at the deals Tiger has already lost.
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and look at the ones TW has KEPT... :banned:
 
Seriously...how do people here still buy Upper Deck stuff and walk away feeling that they got EXACTLY what they they expected? There is nobody to hold accountable. I'm sure many people there do do a good job (ie Karvin and Chris), but in reality, they are just big business who don't give a crap about anything but the bottom line. I think I've bought about 5 single cards on Ebay over the past year....and that was just to try and fill some void that I THOUGHT I had...lol.

One thing I will thank Upper Deck for....they helped me get over my problem of overspending on cards. I spend more cash on actual game used jersies now than I ever did on cards...and find them way more enjoyable (try photo-matching a 1" piece of jersey from a card).

Honestly, if it wasn't for most of the great people on this site, I probably wouldn't ever visit an internet "card" site again in my life....that's how turned off they have made me. Beckett started the downfall....Upper Deck finished it.
 
Where's Karvin / UD in responding to this item? Not very good to see this and the two 1/1's issue though that should almost be resolved once they provide proof the card I sent to them has been destroyed.
 
The Hockey News? Hobby magazines? Come on, I said media attention, not a cover story on Niche Nightly.

Front page news Art? Who said anything about front page news Mr. Skeptic?

Where's the passion and ambition guys?

You don't think TSN would do a feature on this? I guarantee they would. Anyone care to lay a wager? I'm serious.
 
cards-gotta-go said:
Oh yeah? They're getting out of the golf market altogether?
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Golf is 4% of Nike's business. And Tiger's name is on 10% of that. His name is on merchandise that accounts for less than half a per cent of their revenues. But yeah, I agree that they will keep him. Its just what one of our sales guys told me at lunch today, lol.
 
I think the only way this is going to make a difference is if someone can come up with the bullet-proof legal ground to bring a suit against Upper Deck with the potential to bring a huge judgment against them. Best I can come up with is unfair competition and/or false advertising, but those will not bring about the monumental change that is needed. If I could come up with a viable antitrust claim that would do the trick.
 
Jeremy,

I'm not trying to grind you on this - I'd love to see some serious changes in the hobby for the better but I don't know if THIS issue is the one that "fixes" things.

If TSN's Sportscenter prime time show is watched by more than 150K people, I'd be surprised. Let's double that for West Coast prime time and the other viewings throughtout the day. Sadly, I can't find how many subscribers THN has for comparison.

If TSN (or preferably any other national media) does do an segment about the Patrick confusion .... what happens. Is mixing up Lynn and Muzz (which I can write similar enough to say the confusion is legit) enough to have any change on the way things are done?

If it was sold to the grandchildren/great-grandchildren of Lynn (or Muzz) than I can see a bit of human interest pushing things along, but as it is, I don't see much change likely to happen. Is it UD that changes practices? Because of this, does the NHL review who they have as licensees?

Does the NHL even know that hockey cards exist?

Kevin
 
I was brought up by my parents to embrace change. I was hired by my employer make change.

It is how I live my life. I believe in the ability of one person to help make change. I have seen it, I have done it and I have encouraged it.

I set VERY high goals for myself and you know what, I almost never achieve them. But I do get darn close. Just about every time.

I love a good challenge.
 
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Jeremy,

I (sincerly) wish you the best of luck. I have written to the NHL when the monopoly was announced, and I will do the same at this time, and mention current problems that have come up in support of your goals for change.

Kevin
 
I have never heard any comments from McWilliam, to be honest I don't think I've ever even seen a picture of the man. Is he a real person? It would take a personal response from him to even come close to regaining credibility for any of the mistakes made with UD products recently, sadly I think we have a better chance of finding and domesticating a Chupacabra to open our packs for us.

I have not had the opportunity to meet Dr. Price in person yet (hopefully at the upcoming spring Expo) but his passion for the hobby is very evident in the way he conducts himself and stands behind his products. He comes on here and posts on his own accord, faces issues, answers questions, collects feedback, promotes his products, and talks about the hobby with other collectors. He also contributes to the magazine and chats with collectors in person at trade shows, you'd be hard pressed to find a similar level of approachability anywhere in the business world. Any time we have a serious issue with UD it takes a torch-bearing mob to entice a response from them, and we end up with a scripted answer that we've heard numerous times.

It's very rare that an issue of authenticity is raised about an ITG product, but I am certain Dr. Price will be the first one to defend it and correct it if need be.

I really feel bad for the good guys at UD like Karvin and Chris, to have such a sweet job (who wouldn't want to wake up every day and go to work in the hobby you love?) and yet have to stand in the trenches in front of the angry mob armed only with a script.

I haven't bought UD wax in quite a while, and things like this happening EVERY WEEK are making that decision look a lot better all the time.
 


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