Patch forger... caught! gomaz would be proud ;)

One thing I need to make ABUNDANTLY clear... the Bergeron faked card, and some others that may pop up at a later date, were sold by this eBay seller in person at card shows and through shops to unsuspecting buyers. In the case of Bergeron, I talked directly with the seller of the bear-patch, and he confirmed who he bought from and was flabbergasted that the card was fake. Please ensure you understand there are innocent bystanders throughout this mess.
 
Wow, now I have seen it all. It is a sad day when people are switching patches to make $30...Hope this guy gets what is coming to him. I can't believe he actually sells his fake cards at shows as well.
 
I contacted an RCMP officer about this, and he stated if fell under the Forgery portion of the Criminal Code. Could you swing a "fraud" or "mail fraud" charge as well? Potentially... but at the end of the day, he took some, altered it and passed it off as a legitimate original. That's forgery.

I am just trying to understand the logic. I looked at the auction pages, and the seller does not make any claims at all regarding the card. Now, if someone asked him a question regarding the authenticity of the patch and he replied saying that it is authentic - then he knowingly misrepresented it when he knew it was not authentic. If somone set up a print press and was just printing cards, that case would be open and shut. This is just a little different. The card itself is authentic...an accessory has been replaced. Hopefully, one of the investigators here had documented communication with the seller where they clearly misrepresented the card. We all clearly see it as fraud as we know the intentions of the seller. But the law leaves so many loopholes. Only when we clearly understand the law regarding this type of activity, can we really work to stop it.
 
On another note, I really hope the guy who won the Malking limited logos has been contacted and hasn't paid yet...He paid $899.00 for a fake card, :(

EDIT - Just noticed the card didn't end up selling, whoops.
 
WEll this is terrific. I have been in europe and just noticed this post and I have recently bought 2 debut patches from this guy before I left. Not sure if they have arrived yet. The patches weren't very good on either guy and they are both bums but it still puts doubt in my mind - SUCKS
 
Hopefully each and every person that has been burned by this tool will be able to file with the cops and recoup their lost money. It would be nice to see a class action lawsuit against him too.
 
I am just trying to understand the logic. I looked at the auction pages, and the seller does not make any claims at all regarding the card. Now, if someone asked him a question regarding the authenticity of the patch and he replied saying that it is authentic - then he knowingly misrepresented it when he knew it was not authentic. If somone set up a print press and was just printing cards, that case would be open and shut. This is just a little different. The card itself is authentic...an accessory has been replaced. Hopefully, one of the investigators here had documented communication with the seller where they clearly misrepresented the card. We all clearly see it as fraud as we know the intentions of the seller. But the law leaves so many loopholes. Only when we clearly understand the law regarding this type of activity, can we really work to stop it.

I'll leave the law discussion to Aaron and others with more knowledge, but here is the excerpt from the Criminal Code for forgery:

Forgery and Offences Resembling Forgery

Forgery
366. (1) Every one commits forgery who makes a false document, knowing it to be false, with intent
(a) that it should in any way be used or acted on as genuine, to the prejudice of any one whether within Canada or not; or
(b) that a person should be induced, by the belief that it is genuine, to do or to refrain from doing anything, whether within Canada or not.

Making false document
(2) Making a false document includes
(a) altering a genuine document in any material part;
(b) making a material addition to a genuine document or adding to it a false date, attestation, seal or other thing that is material; or
(c) making a material alteration in a genuine document by erasure, obliteration, removal or in any other way.

When forgery complete
(3) Forgery is complete as soon as a document is made with the knowledge and intent referred to in subsection (1), notwithstanding that the person who makes it does not intend that any particular person should use or act on it as genuine or be induced, by the belief that it is genuine, to do or refrain from doing anything.

Forgery complete though document incomplete
(4) Forgery is complete notwithstanding that the false document is incomplete or does not purport to be a document that is binding in law, if it is such as to indicate that it was intended to be acted on as genuine.

R.S., c. C-34, s. 324.

Punishment for forgery
367. Every one who commits forgery
(a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years; or
(b) is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 367; 1994, c. 44, s. 24; 1997, c. 18, s. 24.
 
Since we know the seller is an HI member, I suggest we suspend his HI priveledges pending further criminal action. It's a fair resolution to protect our HI community and it is something within our control.
 
thanks for the info Bruce. starting to fill in the gaps in my brain. LOL. so, seems like we just need to be able to classify the card as a "document". i know nothing about the law - but i always find the logic of it very interesting. maybe i watch too much Law & Order.
 
Lee - I don't think we even need to do that. I suspect that Bruce quoted the most relevant bits simply for brevity, and that the full section includes a more comprehensive statement of what's included under forgery. At the very least, I would guess that there's ample jurisprudence in the form of suits brought to bear for knock-off manufacturers.
 
Interesting turn of events... the hnic_787 member's feedback went "private" about three days ago... the kao_seneca member's feedback went "private" after this post was made last night... coincidence? ;)
 
I don't write here too often.
Thanks for the information. Bu that's a shame that you can't trust in patch cards. Yesterday I watched a video about fake sticker autos. There will be only the hard signed autos lefto for me :( Where does this hobby go? Can't find words. This is brutal.
Sorry for those who boght from these.


George

What video about fake sticker autos? I am a auto collector and would like to know more. Anyone know more about this?

As far as the fake patches are concerned, I doubt that anything would happen unless people are going after this guy civilly. I don't think UD cares or would do anything(I am curious to see a response though), e-bay may close his account given the problems they had from lawsuits from other unrelated fake merchandise(but doesn't UD need to go after e-bay?) but he can just set up another account and I don't see criminal charges being laid or successfully prosecuted.
 
Is this perp a minor? If so file a civil action against the loaded parents.If not then probably very little will ever fall on this scum.
If his HI ID is going to remain anon then can someone post a photo of this guy so we will be less likely to make a deal with him at the Expo or some other show.
 
It's garbage like this that has slowed down my card buying. Hopefully this guy sees some jail time :dance:
 
I also know this seller, kinda shocking to say the least. And as Tom said, he is a pretty good friend to some members on here.
 

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