Patch forger... caught! gomaz would be proud ;)

The more I read from this thread, the more sick to my stomach I feel. UD's response was just what I have come to expect from them. That gets me thinking, if I expect so little from them, why am I putting my hard-earned money in their pockets?

I don't want to make an impulse decision here, but I think it may be time to stop being part of the problem.
 
Everybody's crapping on UD for the patch faking dilemna...

My question is: What are other manufacturers doing to prevent this from happening? I don't think Upper Deck hockey cards are the only product susceptible to this. We think it's so easy for Upper Deck to implement a new technology or at least a new step in the process, but at what cost in terms of time, expense and QC problems? In my opinion, Upper Deck is being criticized unfairly in this case.
 
mclean_m said:
Everybody's crapping on UD for the patch faking dilemna...

My question is: What are other manufacturers doing to prevent this from happening? I don't think Upper Deck hockey cards are the only product susceptible to this. We think it's so easy for Upper Deck to implement a new technology or at least a new step in the process, but at what cost in terms of time, expense and QC problems? In my opinion, Upper Deck is being criticized unfairly in this case.
Click to expand...

As people have stated earlier in this thread. . .
ITG (for example) use a higher quality adhesive to affix patches to cards, as well as build the card layers better that reduce/eliminate "space" between the window and the patch. That significantly makes it harder for the forger to change the patch without destroying the card.
 
Working in the printing industry.. Jersey cards once came through my company for finishing before I started at the company...

Not sure what company it was but they sent us football jerseys and the unfinished cards (and guards to watch the workers)

My company sent the jerseys thru a diecutter between 2 pieces of chipboard, collected all the pieces from the jersey and minimum wage workers were watched as they affixed the swatches in the cards. I'll have to ask someone at my company that saw it being done to get more details but that is the basic gist of how these cards are made.
 
jaywings19 said:
As people have stated earlier in this thread. . .
ITG (for example) use a higher quality adhesive to affix patches to cards, as well as build the card layers better that reduce/eliminate "space" between the window and the patch. That significantly makes it harder for the forger to change the patch without destroying the card.
Click to expand...

Yes, I'm aware of these methods and I would assume they would make patch faking more difficult. However, I'm sure those who are proficient at this art are able, or will be able to, overcome these measures.

But what other manufacturers have designed a technology or a process that makes patch faking impossible (or at least easy to detect via an online database) as most expect Upper Deck to do?
 
Can't believe buddy would ruin his rep and credibility over a few bucks. This has been spread through so many forums now that the majority of the hobby now knows (including UD). He will be dealt with accordingly. Props to Bruce for nailing this sucker.
 
I just thought of a great idea!!

I volunteer to go to UD's pack-out or patch-assembly facility and take pictures with my digital camera of every patch card in this year's Cup.

Yes!! I will bring my own camera, will pay my way and will even buy the low-wage workers lunch one of the days.

I am willing to be searched on my way in, and out. I will also sign an NDA if desired.

I will then pay the costs to host these images on a web site. I will then add some encryption to ensure that the images are not henceforth tampered with and obviously let your IT guys scrutinize this aspect.

How does that sound UD? No labour. No digital storage fees or issues. No new technology. And your workers get a free lunch.

Let me add that this is not a joke. Give me the go-ahead. Tell me when and where and I will come and do this on my own time and dime as a service to the hobby that I love.

And I promise not to let my camera, nor my fingers, touch the cards.

Whaddaya say UD?

EDIT - As it may be too late for this year's Cup, my offer stands for next season's release of UD Black, SPA, OPCP and Cup.
 
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gomaz said:
I just thought of a great idea!!

I volunteer to go to UD's pack-out or patch-assembly facility and take pictures with my digital camera of every patch card in this year's Cup.

Yes!! I will bring my own camera, will pay my way and will even buy the low-wage workers lunch one of the days.

I am willing to be searched on my way in, and out. I will also sign an NDA if desired.

I will then pay the costs to host these images on a web site. I will then add some encryption to ensure that the images are not henceforth tampered with and obviously let your IT guys scrutinize this aspect.

How does that sound UD? No labour. No digital storage fees or issues. No new technology. And your workers get a free lunch.

Let me add that this is not a joke. Give me the go-ahead. Tell me when and where and I will come and do this on my own time and dime as a service to the hobby that I love.

And I promise not to let my camera, nor my fingers, touch the cards.

Whaddaya say UD?

EDIT - As it may be too late for this year's Cup, my offer stands for next season's release of UD Black, SPA, OPCP and Cup.
Click to expand...

Jeremy that is as good as it can possibly get!! And I for one know that you are not joking and are very serious about this offer.. I hope that Upper Deck takes you up on your offer.. At least you put your money where your mouth is, which is more then I can say for some!!
 
Thanks for this Bruce... it's an eye opener, and I'm disappointed to learn who it was. Not overly surprised given the quality of things he always had on his table, just disappointed since I thought he would know better. He has always been kind to my daughter as well, given her free base cards when we came through the show. Ah well.

A couple of points...

It's too late for UD to come up with a simple solution like a stronger bonding agent. The damage to the reputation of the integrity is done, and most people aren't going to trust a claim that stronger glue has been used... besides, how would UD back that up? They will not put in print that they guarantee that the card is tamper proof since it opens up another chapter of risk and liability. They need to go to a very visual response that will allow people to reassure THEMSELVES.

It's coming time to reassess the market place, isn't it? What is it now that appeals to the consumer about game worn pieces? They used to be a super rare novelty, now they are dirt cheap common. The idea that your player may have had the piece of jersey touch him actually appeals to people? Is it the visual aspect of a nice patch? Or does it have to be a combination of factors?

I don't have any answers, just questions. Hopefully those smarter than me can figure it out!

See - Jeremy has a great idea! :D



Cory
 
mclean_m said:
Everybody's crapping on UD for the patch faking dilemna...

My question is: What are other manufacturers doing to prevent this from happening? I don't think Upper Deck hockey cards are the only product susceptible to this. We think it's so easy for Upper Deck to implement a new technology or at least a new step in the process, but at what cost in terms of time, expense and QC problems? In my opinion, Upper Deck is being criticized unfairly in this case.
Click to expand...

Not everyone is crapping on UD for this... you need to re-read the entire thread.

I'll try this analogy...

Suppose you are a criminal... you want to drop off the radar, re-invent yourself, whatever. So you need to find the easiest basic documents to forge... a driver's licence, birth certificate, whatever.

Which driver's licence do you copy? Answer: whichever one is easiest. And I know for a fact that the most forged licence in Canada is Quebec's. It used to be Ontario's before their new licence came out last year.

If I'm going to fake a patch, which card will I tamper with? Answer: the one that's easiest to get a patch in and out of. Clearly, this scumbag has decided that UD is the way to go.

Which doesn't make UD liable or anything like that. What it SHOULD do is open Upper Deck's eyes to how easy it is to do this. It places the onus on UD to find the best way to protect the integrity of its products... it's in their best interests to do so for the long term viability of their products and their business overall.

But if it's as easy as it's being made out to be, then my inner skeptic makes me question EVERY SINGLE PATCH out there... which means in effect that I've reached the end of buying cards on the secondary market.

Which begs the question: the way this information is circulating in hobby circles... how many more people are going to stop buying on the secondary market? How many more are going to stop completely?

This COULD be a true tipping point in this hobby. I don't think we should underestimate that. How the local authorities, Upper Deck, and the other stakeholders react to this will shape this hobby for years to come.

IF nothing happens, I guarantee you that we will see 10 times the fakes we have now... maybe 100 times. Reason: no repurcussions... UD won't do anything, the cops don't care, so keep on forging. There would be no reason for him, you, or I to not forge... (which is not to say that I would)

IF UD and the legal system make an example out of this scumbag, it generates credibility and goodwill with its' current (and future) customer base.

It's kinda like when I was 8 or 9 years old, and I was watching the WWF and I was a big fan of some wrestler... he was trying really hard and winning and stuff... and when he lost a match I was upset. Found out a few days later that the whole thing was fake... don't think I've watched it since.

The point is that once the integrity is gone, it's game over.
 
For higher end products like The Cup, OPC Premier, Ultimate, Exquisite, etc. - they come in packaging that makes it nearly impossible for pack searching, so why not do what ITG did for the Superlative line? Each card comes in it's own soft sleave and top loader with a security label sealing it from the factory? That would be the least expensive option that I can see, I'm sure UD can get a ridiculously low price on these supplies with the quantity they would order. It wouldn't eliminate the problem in the mid-lower end products, but at least insure the itnegrity of the high end products which is where all the big money is being spent.
 
THERUSSIANRCKT said:
Having thought about this way too much last night, I have come to the conclusion that the only way to completely solve the problem is a photo archive. Anything else will not be a solution, but only a deterrent.

Super Super Glue...I believe they will find a way to deal with it.

Slabbing the cards in BGS holders...Why does Beckett have a graded card lookup on their web site? If those cases are tamperproof or cannot be manufactured by someone else, why do we need a database where we enter a serial number to verify that the card in the slab matches the serial number on the label? They are just plastic holders with a label. Personally, I cannot stand cards in slabs. They are a pain to store and you can only view your card through plastic.

Cards in top loaders with sticker seals...not so tamperproof.

The only ABSOLUTE GUARANTEE for us to know if a patch card has been altered is to have an image library to reference. You can super glue or slab all you want - that would give me no guarantee. If the image library is not feasible for UD, then I would prefer nothing. Anything less would serve little purpose and only add to the cost of the product.
Click to expand...

I agree with Lee here....

If you're going to put some super glue in the cards it's only a deterent, not a fix to the solution. Eventually they'll figure it out and we'll be having this discussion a few weeks/months later.

As for the slabbed cards.....seems 100% that it'd work but ugh, I'm not a fan of the slabbed cards!!

As for the photo image library.....
I think it's their best solution. Why not have a poll and ask people if UD charged you $0.50-$2.50 for lower end products a box or an extra $5-10 per box or case for mid to high end products......that went directly went into an image archive fund. Do you think alot of people would go for this idea?
 
I'll kick in some money for expenses, Jeremy.

Well from what I have been reading he seems to be more than financially stable. Either way your right he's a criminal.
Click to expand...
Umm...haven't you noticed the rather spectacular criminal behaviour by some of the exceedingly wealthy? Criminal behaviour is not a trait restricted to a given demographic.
 
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deankal said:
As for the photo image library.....
I think it's their best solution. Why not have a poll and ask people if UD charged you $0.50-$2.50 for lower end products a box or an extra $5-10 per box or case for mid to high end products......that went directly went into an image archive fund. Do you think alot of people would go for this idea?
Click to expand...

I think if you give people the option, they won't go for it.

UD should just do it and blend the cost in IF they're going to do it.
 
Upper Deck is taking the brunt of this patch-faking angst, and as this person used UD cards, I think Jai is onto something... to a point. UD's cards are maybe not the "easiest", but obviously the most lucrative. As someone else said earlier, the ITG swatches are generally pretty nice to begin with, and spending the time to forge an ITG BTP Super Sized Pad wouldn't get you much more than it's already worth.

However, there are issues in the other sports. We are already tracking another eBay seller who is forging football cards, from Topps as well as UD. This is not just a UD issue. I'm sure there are people forging Donruss/Panini cards as well to try and gain a few more $$ to the bottom line.

Reading this thread again, hearing the responses from all parties and hearing that this thread has been copied and pasted on almost every message board on the web... it saddens me that there are still people out there who have no conscience at all about knowingly screwing someone else over for a few bucks.

B.
 
quincy said:
I'll kick in some money for expenses, Jeremy.
Click to expand...

Not only will I help with expenses, I'll fly down as well on my own dime and digital camera, and also offer to host images on HI's server and, if that doesn't appeal to UD, offer to pay for a completely separate server to host them, independent of HI.

A photo gallery of these high-end patch cards is imperative to rebuilding the trust in these cards.
 
Bruce,
Points well taken, except the last one:
Remember the seven deadly sins? Those are as much a part of who we are as humans as the virtues we claim to hold in high esteem. This is greed in action, no more, no less.

Much as we'd like to paint this fella as vermin, he remains a person who let one of his baser drives get the best of him.
 

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