27Leafs27
Upstanding Member,
TSN is saying that Miller will waive his no trade/movement to go to the Hawks.
Dan.
Dan.
trade deadline just got more interestin, Rick Nash available
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Kyle
Verified Trader
Miller isn't playing well right now no, but he's the elite goalie they need and have never had. I'd much rather have him the Bernier. He's only 31. I don't want to see Nash traded w/out getting a solid, proven, starting goalie. Carter isn't gonna get them one and I think Miller just wants out of Buffalo.
Of course it's really irrelevant if the supposed "list" that was leaked by the Columbus reporter is true because Buffalo isn't on it.
I'd rather they just fire Howson to be honest and keep Nash.
Rorschach
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I value Carter higher than Nash in terms of return value because of Carter's position, age and salary...can't ignore that salary cap, you know? Only a non-contender would value Nash more than Carter, imo...a team like, like...Columbus, one who just needs star power to put butts in seats and is no where near the cap limit.
Anyways I was saying it is possible. I didn't say it was likely. Normally Eklund rumors don't have much going on in terms of books balancing.
Oh and by the way, when you're talking about deals, you don't always get what you ask for. Usually you either settle for the best offer. Once in a while, someone wows you but usually not. Especially in this case where there's a finite list of teams, not a lot of teams can part with that much in assets and also some how engineer the cap room with regards to Nash's insane cap hit.
I keep expecting for this guy (Nash) to take off his jersey and actually be Ovechkin underneath, lol. He's putting up numbers like an underperforming Carter yet is getting paid like AO.
- R
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gretzky99
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Ryan Miller to Chicago for Patrick Kane would be a very interesting trade. Buffalo would probably have to give up something else because Kane is so young, but that trade could benefit both teams.
in terms of Nash v. Carter, i'd rather have Carter as a Kings fan. he costs less, he would cost a lot less to acquire, he is familiar with Richards, Hextall, DL, Stevens and others and if he is going to thrive anywhere, i think L.A. would be a likely place.
in terms of Nash v. Carter, i'd rather have Carter as a Kings fan. he costs less, he would cost a lot less to acquire, he is familiar with Richards, Hextall, DL, Stevens and others and if he is going to thrive anywhere, i think L.A. would be a likely place.
canucksfreak19
Verified Trader,
You may value Carter more. But it seems the "experts" and team sources value Nash more. Everything I've read and heard is that Columbus will pretty much give Carter away because he's a cancer in that locker room.
Kyle
Verified Trader
And now Nash wants to go too. Can't help but think that if Carter wasn't there this thread wouldn't be 4 pages long. There simply wouldn't be a Rick Nash trade discussion.
Mike52Green
Verified Trader
Not sure if it's been posted yet, but according to a Jackets beat writer, the only teams Nash would go to are Toronto, Boston, New York Rangers, Sam Jose, and Los Angeles.
canucksfreak19
Verified Trader,
Dreger just said that Carter could wind up in L.A. for Jack Johnson. I think that would be a great return for Columbus in shipping out Carter.
Rorschach
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The problem is that in LA, they (the people and the GM it seems) don't even care what other people think, lol.
But yeah, we wouldn't mind getting Carter at a discount and ship maybe Jarrett Stoll back as part of the deal to make the salaries work and to make room for a 3rd center.
- R
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gretzky99
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if DL gives up Johnson for Carter he should be fired immediately.
wildfan1833
Verified Trader,
I second this:beer:
Rorschach
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I'd like to hear your reasoning on this.
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gretzky99
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the Kings need at least 2 top-6 forwards and at least one more top-9 forward if they have any chance of competing in the West. Nash would take up almost all of their cap space and he has proven he can't carry a team. i like Nash, but he's paid way, way too much for what he gives you.
Johnson is still very young, has a fantastic contract and keeps improving.
No matter what DL does before the deadline, the Kings have absolutely zero chance at doing any damage in the playoffs. so here's what i would do.
trade Penner and Stoll for whatever you can get and let some kids play.
showcase Bernier by giving him some games.
Bernier + Martinez should get DL a top-6 forward whether that is now or in the summer. i would target Jeff Carter.
in the summer go after one UFA top-6 forward not named Parise. while everyone is throwing money at Parise and he's waiting to make his decision (which is the new thing for big-time UFAs) go sign one of the second tier forwards. i'd love Ray Whitney for one year @ $3M.
then sign a guy like Gaustad for the top-9.
Whitney-Kopitar-Williams
Carter-Richards-Brown
Clifford-Loktionov-Gaustad
Richardson-Fraser-Lewis
Doughty-Scuderi
Johnson-Mitchell
Voynov-Greene
Quick/vet backup
that's about $60M and that team should score a few more goals.
tiger tiger
Verified Trader
Regarding Nash, TSN reported that a source said that Nash's short list of teams are NYR, Bos, LA, SJ and the Leafs.
I don't see either Detroit or Vancouver really going after him because of the cap hit. All those years of saying that nobody gets paid more than Lidstrom goes out the window. Same with the Canucks where a lot of players took pay cuts to keep the team competitive. Nash's salary is pretty high. Some teams may decide to take their chances and try to sign Parise as a UFA, and keep their young players/prospects.
Boston and SJ don't have enough talent to give up without hurting the current team. CBJ supposedly wants a young NHL player, plus a combo of prospects and picks. I'm sure CBJ will be asking for Seguin and Hamilton to begin negotiations. Couture and a bunch of 1st round picks for SJ. I doubt either team will be willing to part with those players.
NYR have some prospects and young players such as Stepan, Anisimov, Erixon, and Hagelin. But CBJ may be more interested in Del Zotto and McDonagh. Again, I don't think Sather wants to include those guys.
LA can put a package of Bernier, Toffoli, Voynov and 1st round pick. Not sure if CBJ has completely given up on Mason just yet. They might ask for JJ instead of Bernier, and Voynov could get subbed out for Moller or something.
Leafs could make the strongest offer. They could offer Kadri, Schenn, Frattin, and a 1st round pick. That would be pretty tempting for CBJ. If Carter is on the move too, Connolly could be added instead of Frattin.
I am surprised that CBJ/Nash decided to make the move now. I would think that there would be more suitors or better offers in the off-season when some bad contracts have expired (like Gagne, Penner for LA). With more cap room, there could be more teams in the mix hence better offers. That's why I think Burke is going to do everything possible to get Nash. Burke knows that other teams are limited right now b/c of cap issues or just don't want to mess up the chemistry of the team, so there are less serious trading partners for CBJ right now.
As for JJ for Carter, I don't know how this benefits LA. They would be way too deep on C. Kopitar, Richards, Carter and Stoll. No wingers, plus no dman coming up to replace JJ. I know that JJ is pretty bad defensively, but he's still NHL calibre. Plus if the rumours were true about Richards and Carter being party buddies, not sure if you want the duo going nuts on the the town together.
just my 2 cents.
I don't see either Detroit or Vancouver really going after him because of the cap hit. All those years of saying that nobody gets paid more than Lidstrom goes out the window. Same with the Canucks where a lot of players took pay cuts to keep the team competitive. Nash's salary is pretty high. Some teams may decide to take their chances and try to sign Parise as a UFA, and keep their young players/prospects.
Boston and SJ don't have enough talent to give up without hurting the current team. CBJ supposedly wants a young NHL player, plus a combo of prospects and picks. I'm sure CBJ will be asking for Seguin and Hamilton to begin negotiations. Couture and a bunch of 1st round picks for SJ. I doubt either team will be willing to part with those players.
NYR have some prospects and young players such as Stepan, Anisimov, Erixon, and Hagelin. But CBJ may be more interested in Del Zotto and McDonagh. Again, I don't think Sather wants to include those guys.
LA can put a package of Bernier, Toffoli, Voynov and 1st round pick. Not sure if CBJ has completely given up on Mason just yet. They might ask for JJ instead of Bernier, and Voynov could get subbed out for Moller or something.
Leafs could make the strongest offer. They could offer Kadri, Schenn, Frattin, and a 1st round pick. That would be pretty tempting for CBJ. If Carter is on the move too, Connolly could be added instead of Frattin.
I am surprised that CBJ/Nash decided to make the move now. I would think that there would be more suitors or better offers in the off-season when some bad contracts have expired (like Gagne, Penner for LA). With more cap room, there could be more teams in the mix hence better offers. That's why I think Burke is going to do everything possible to get Nash. Burke knows that other teams are limited right now b/c of cap issues or just don't want to mess up the chemistry of the team, so there are less serious trading partners for CBJ right now.
As for JJ for Carter, I don't know how this benefits LA. They would be way too deep on C. Kopitar, Richards, Carter and Stoll. No wingers, plus no dman coming up to replace JJ. I know that JJ is pretty bad defensively, but he's still NHL calibre. Plus if the rumours were true about Richards and Carter being party buddies, not sure if you want the duo going nuts on the the town together.
just my 2 cents.
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punkoholic
Verified Trader
Some Jackets fans another board claims that they heard Johnson doesn't want to go to Columbus. If this is true, it's Jeff Carter part 2. They also have a theory about Johnson and not wanting to play in Columbus and him signing in LA.
Actual rumour part of the story
Last year, the Columbus dispatch claimed that the Blue Jackets were close to acquiring a star defensemen. They were believed that it was Jack Johnson. During the rumours, Jack Johnson ended up signing a long term deal with LA. Once that happened, the rumours of Columbus getting a star player was dead, as reported by the Dispatch.
Fans theory
Lombardi was ready to deal Johnson to Columbus. He told Johnson, either sign a long term deal with us or I'm trading you to Columbus. Johnson, ended up signing the contract just to avoid being dealt to Columbus.
True or not true, if Johnson is headed to Columbus for Carter or Nash, I sure as hope that Howson at least with the permission of LA talked to Johnson. I don't want another story on how another star player is unhappy in Columbus.
Also, if he doesn't want to come to Columbus/Carter is unhappy, it shows star players don't want to come so why the hell would you trade Nash? Wouldn't it be funny(well not to us fans) if Yakupov or whoever pulled a Lindros and refused to go to Columbus?
Would Boston trade Kreji? Although, that's not really want Columbus needs as they would have Brassard/Johansen as the 1/2 punch for the rebuild down the middle. From the Sharks, I would ask for Pavelski but I think Sharks would counter with Clowe which I don't want. Rangers, the rumoured player is Dubinsky which makes sense, a young solid player. Not sure if Sather is actually offering him though.
The fans have given up on Mason(although with his new huge pads) he had 2 good games and 1 horrible game in the last 3. Apparently Howson recently said he still has faith in Mason though.
Actual rumour part of the story
Last year, the Columbus dispatch claimed that the Blue Jackets were close to acquiring a star defensemen. They were believed that it was Jack Johnson. During the rumours, Jack Johnson ended up signing a long term deal with LA. Once that happened, the rumours of Columbus getting a star player was dead, as reported by the Dispatch.
Fans theory
Lombardi was ready to deal Johnson to Columbus. He told Johnson, either sign a long term deal with us or I'm trading you to Columbus. Johnson, ended up signing the contract just to avoid being dealt to Columbus.
True or not true, if Johnson is headed to Columbus for Carter or Nash, I sure as hope that Howson at least with the permission of LA talked to Johnson. I don't want another story on how another star player is unhappy in Columbus.
Also, if he doesn't want to come to Columbus/Carter is unhappy, it shows star players don't want to come so why the hell would you trade Nash? Wouldn't it be funny(well not to us fans) if Yakupov or whoever pulled a Lindros and refused to go to Columbus?
They also said(or was it the guys on SPortsnet) that the Wings in the Summer could be heavily interested. Also, even if they're not on Nash's list right now, could change in the Summer.
Would Boston trade Kreji? Although, that's not really want Columbus needs as they would have Brassard/Johansen as the 1/2 punch for the rebuild down the middle. From the Sharks, I would ask for Pavelski but I think Sharks would counter with Clowe which I don't want. Rangers, the rumoured player is Dubinsky which makes sense, a young solid player. Not sure if Sather is actually offering him though.
The fans have given up on Mason(although with his new huge pads) he had 2 good games and 1 horrible game in the last 3. Apparently Howson recently said he still has faith in Mason though.
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gretzky99
Guest
maybe it has something to do with Johnson and UM? if Howson gets Johnson for Carter he will have saved his job and DL will lose his.
if Howson can get any quality for Carter he will have done well. but getting Johnson would be a steal.
tiger tiger
Verified Trader
As I said, a lot of teams would be more interested in the off-season instead of now. If Lidstrom retires, then the "nobody makes more than the captain" statement goes out the window. It is a $7.8 mil cap hit. 5th highest in the NHL, I think.
I think Krejci, Pavelski and Dubinsky are a little older than CBJ wants. Plus the ceiling for the potential for those guys aren't very high. IMO, not "sexy" enough for Howson to make the deal. But Burke does have the pieces that might get Howson to bite. I think Kadri was 7th overall, Schenn 5th overall, their 1st round pick will be in the 15-20 range. Probably some conditional if they go deep in the playoffs. Kulemin could be added to free up cap space. Leafs would still have to move/buy out Lombardi and Armstrong to try to re-sign Grabovski. I'm sure Burke would be want to unload Connolly's contract.
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Rorschach
New Member, Must Send First
Wow, not sure where to start, hehe.
First, thanks for the detailed reply.
LIFO (Last In, First Out) then.
You can't count on UFAs signing in LA. Why? I can give a ton of reasons, from the system and coach to this not being a hockey hotbed like Toronto. Bottom line is the last decade+, since the Gretzky era, we haven't been able to sign any decent UFAs...only junkpile guys and injured guys come to LA. We HAVE to trade and once we have a winning contending team, maybe we can interest the right kinds of UFAs (the ones who come to win).
We can target Carter and if we get him, move Stoll...not necessarily to Columbus but to any one else who can use him, even if it's for future considerations. I also fully agree with you to get rid of as many ex-Oiler guys since they're all overpaid. Heck, almost every expensive player (3 mil or more) is overpaid this year. Greene as a bottom pairing defenseman playing maybe 10 to 15 min a night and just as a non-puckmoving stay at home guy is making 3 mil...
We have a logjam of talented kids at...
...center (Loktionov and Lewis with Richardson still laying around)
...defensemen (Voynov, Martinez, Hickey and Muzzin with Forbort and Deslauriers on the way)
...goaltenders (Bernier obviously, Zatkoff and Jones with Gibson on the way)
...right wing (Toffoli, Kozun and Vey)
With so many talented kids, why not trade off the way underperforming and overpaid guys? Even if we don't keep the kids, give them a chance to play in order to build up their trade value! (The ! is for Lombardi, not you, g99, hehe)
As for Johnson, he's also overpaid. If you take away his 3rd overall draft position and his name and just look solely on performance and age, you'll see he's worth maybe 1.5 million tops. He's a 40 point defenseman (very common nowadays, every decent team seems to have 1 or 2) but he's a DOUBLE DIGIT MINUS player every year. He was -21 last year and a -10 so far this year (projecting to about -17). That's very bad for a top 4 "defender" for any team let alone a contender. And he's already in his mid-20s...he missed a big chunk of development staying in Michigan and he improves only slightly each year. By the time he's a 0 +/- he'll be a free agent, lol. And this is with LAs logjam of defensemen. Right now Voynov in his very first 33 games is a +4 with 11 points...while NOT playing top 4 minutes! Johnson for Carter straight up...Howson would be fired, not Lombardi. No matter how the deal goes, Lombardi can say he had VV and AMart to instantly replace JJ.
As for Nash, his cap hit is so bad I'm surprised people have the Bernier, Voynov, Penner AND a 1st nonsense going around. CBJ will be lucky to get Bernier, 1st and the only reason why that much is because we're going to ask them to take Penner back as a salary dump! With Nash giving a "short list" right now, any deadline deal will stunted in value. But I agree with you in rather having Carter instead. They score about the same but Carter is younger, plays a more important position and makes nearly 3 million less, lol.
But, despite how bad Nash's hit is, I could engineer deals on paper where the Kings manage to get Nash, Carter AND Parise, and re-sign all of those guys next year too if ZP is willing, lol. Yes, we have that many guys making too much money. The only issue would be if both CBJ and NJ covet the same prospect and not getting that guy (Bernier) is a deal breaker because NJ can use Bernier just as much as CBJ.
Lastly, I don't think you can give up this season. We have all of the normally needed gears for a playoff machine...our defense is excellent...we have the hot goaltender...we have some size up front. Our PK is very good (in fact the one 3-5 mil guy who is getting the job done is Willie Mitchell, who we should try to re-sign as we dump all of our other UFAs) and we have some size up front.
If we can get a couple of players up front to score, we're in deep. Not only because those guys will add more goals but they will also take the pressure off the other guys who should be scoring but aren't (Kopitar, Williams, Richards, Brown, and Gagne when he returns, etc.). If we can make the playoffs, it will be valuable experience for our young team.
- R
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Rorschach
New Member, Must Send First
I think your reasoning, other than dumping Connolly's salary, in saying that Toronto would offer the best package isn't true. If you make that kind of deal with the guys you're saying, that would run their cupboard bare.
If LA used the same reckless logic, they would be able to offer three times as much, clear out the top end of their farm system and still have the entire NHL roster intact and deep.
We just don't feel Nash, with that insane contract, is worth that much. I think it's pretty much consensus amongst the NHL analysts out there that while Toronto can offer a good package, LA can offer the most by far.
So the question is, is LA really on that Nash list. I heard he wasn't but CBJ keeps bringing us into the picture because we have probably the best offer by a bit on the table since we can offer more and our need is the greatest by far. That would make sense as to why a deal hasn't already gone down...unless LA wants to wait a bit longer so Nash's salary is less of a hit on the cap this year, pro-rated, in case Lombardi has yet another move he's trying to make. (He should, we need more than one player.)
- R
tiger tiger
Verified Trader
ahh...but you forget that Burke is running the Leafs asylum. He's done that in the past with Vancouver and Anaheim, basically run the cupboard bare before he moves on to another team. I think he has a 5 or 6 year contract with the Leafs. If he produces a Cup in Toronto, he'll be considered a god there and it wouldn't matter if the Leafs didn't see another Cup for 40+ years.
Kessel basically saved Burke's butt this year. Some still aren't convinced that giving up Seguin and Hamilton was such a great idea still.
Plus the Leafs generate enough profit that they could bury bad contracts, but Burke doesn't like to do that unless absolutely necessary. Like Redden for the NYR. Leafs most likely made a net profit of $60-70 mil last year, and didn't even make the playoffs. LA doesn't have that luxury, so a Nash's salary seems ridiculous.
Outside of Doughty and JJ (who's 25 and too old and close to UFA for CBJ's liking), LA hasn't doesn't have a top 10 draft pick in their line up. (not saying top 10 are guaranteed to be sure fire NHLers, but some GMs buy into the hype). Bernier has the potential to be a #1 starter.
Hickey has pretty much busted as a top flight dman, Lewis is a 3rd or 4th liner, Brayden Schenn got traded for Richards, Teubert to Edm for Penner. I don't know how much "sweeter" LA can make it b/c, IMO, they don't have perceived high end prospects.
As for forward prospects, only Loktionov and Toffoli will most likely be NHLers. Moller isn't even playing NA (not sure if he's still under contract). On d, Voynov could be a NHLer. Forbort and Deslauriers, maybe. Tricky with d. Penner and Stoll are UFAs so CBJ won't want them at all.
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